[split] Discussion About Potential Rule Change and Staff Action

[Shell B]

Didn't get the Mehmet thread reference I take it? No-one got that? No?

Oh, I'm sorry. You mean the thread that I was not involved in in an official capacity, but in which I presented my opinion about the schoolyard behavior you and others were engaging in? That thread?

Would you care to take me step by step through what aided your decision in ignoring the constant attempts of one person to force arguements on whos the better nation and/or race on as many threads as he could in a forum concerned with matters of theism and atheism?

In what world am I the only staff member here? Firstly, I ignore none of the issues that anyone presents to the staff. I engage in talks about them with the other staff and base my actions on their consensus, except in very specific situations. Even then, my actions will be discussed after they take place and changed, if I am in the wrong. Secondly, racism is not against the rules. Nationalism is not against the rules. Being a twat is not against the rules. Jumping on a bandwagon about the evil moderator who doesn't do her job and introduces her ego when you envision she is a an evil dictator pissing everyone off all by herself is not against the rules, either. If you don't like that we allow opinions that differ from yours, that is sand in your diaper. It's not my fucking problem.

Even if the thread creator was wrong did that give you licence to ignore an issue that was clearly present as well as any evidence in the form of posts pertaining to it?

A. I have absolutely every right to ignore anything that I want. I am not your employee. Furthermore, you assuming that I ignore things is rather rich, given a private move on my part that occurred not long before said thread was posted. B. That thread was not evidence. That thread was a bunch of people ganging up another for having an unpopular opinion.

Yet in this instance you were very quick to condemn. What made this guy so much worse?[/i]

Again, assumption. That thread was going for hours, as was a conversation about it between staff, before I said a goddamn thing about it, apart from a very brief interaction about the rules. My condemnation came later.

Shell had nothing to do with this, and shame on you for thinking this is somehow about her "ego". Phil's attitude has been reported many many times, and we (note: WE, the staff) have warned him multiple times about it. He continually disregards these warnings, hence why I (note: ME, Tiberius, not Shell or anyone else) sent him to the Gauntlet.

Perhaps you should enquire about things you clearly have no idea about before making up such ridiculous accusations in a public arena?

Ironic, you obviously have no idea what I'm referencing either. Maybe you should look into it.

Yes, then he can tell you that I didn't make the decision about your boyfriend's thread, either.

[Reforged]

Mehmet's posts about nationalistic tripe do not break the rules, so there is no 'clearly present' issue as you put it. If you feel he is being atagonistic, feel free to report him, but people are allowed to spout their political views, even if they are unpopular. Just because the site is called 'Atheist Forums' does not mean that certain topics are off limits.

FYI, mehmet does get warned when he breaks the rules, but it happens behind the scenes. Actually, a lot happens behind the scenes, including the event that you seem to be throwing a fit over, so how about you admit that you don't have all the information and should probably not be commenting on these issues from such a position of ignorance.

Putting forth the premise that our nation is inferior compared to his isn't political? Also, wouldn't you penalise someone who brought up abortion in every thread he could? You guys don't feel that allowing him to bait people into arguing on race and creed on a regular basis isn't going to eventually blow up in your faces? Even I've felt tempted to take the bait, that talk is controversial at the best of times but the way he puts it? If someone takes him up on it shitstorm won't even describe it. You're intelligent enough to know that it isn't worth the risk.
The thread made was created as a means for him to spit out his agenda and he *does* have an agenda. The theory was that if he got it out of his system he'd never bring it up again. I think I speak for most of us when I say that would be preferable to being baited by his nationalist nonsense on a regular basis. Now resolve it that way, resolve it your way or wait for some poor bastard whos stupid enough to rise to his bullshit to force you to resolve it the messy way but either way this will eventually be resolved.

[Shell B]

Putting forth the premise that our nation is inferior compared to his isn't political?

It is and he is not outside of the bounds of the rules by doing it. You, and others, are outside of the bounds of the rules by taking up direct attacks against another member. That's a messy road to tread and I know from past experience that letting it slide is messier than telling you guys to follow the rules.

Also, wouldn't you penalise someone who brought up abortion in every thread he could?

No. We wouldn't.

You guys don't feel that allowing him to bait people into arguing on race and creed on a regular basis isn't going to eventually blow up in your faces?

People here can debate about whatever they want. They can also choose not to debate. (hint)

If someone takes him up on it shitstorm won't even describe it. You're intelligent enough to know that it isn't worth the risk.

Worth what risk? Someone losing their temper because they can't take differing opinions? That happens all of the time. In fact, we've had people all out freak the fuck out here. Forums are still here. I think we're safe.

The thread made was created as a means for him to spit out his agenda and he *does* have an agenda.

That's the problem, you can't pigeonhole members, no matter how much you dislike them. They can post wherever they want, assuming they don't break any rules.

The theory was that if he got it out of his system he'd never bring it up again.

Well, this isn't the place to test theories. I'm afraid that the outcome of it was rather predictable, common and far from your theory.

Now resolve it that way, resolve it your way or wait for some poor bastard whos stupid enough to rise to his bullshit to force you to resolve it the messy way but either way this will eventually be resolved.

You think so? I think the resolution will be everyone stops being butthurt about differing opinions or just leaves. That's what always happens.

[Reforged]

Didn't get the Mehmet thread reference I take it? No-one got that? No?

Oh, I'm sorry. You mean the thread that I was not involved in in an official capacity, but in which I presented my opinion about the schoolyard behavior you and others were engaging in? That thread?

Would you care to take me step by step through what aided your decision in ignoring the constant attempts of one person to force arguements on whos the better nation and/or race on as many threads as he could in a forum concerned with matters of theism and atheism?

In what world am I the only staff member here? Firstly, I ignore none of the issues that anyone presents to the staff. I engage in talks about them with the other staff and base my actions on their consensus, except in very specific situations. Even then, my actions will be discussed after they take place and changed, if I am in the wrong. Secondly, racism is not against the rules. Nationalism is not against the rules. Being a twat is not against the rules. Jumping on a bandwagon about the evil moderator who doesn't do her job and introduces her ego when you envision she is a an evil dictator pissing everyone off all by herself is not against the rules, either. If you don't like that we allow opinions that differ from yours, that is sand in your diaper. It's not my fucking problem.

Even if the thread creator was wrong did that give you licence to ignore an issue that was clearly present as well as any evidence in the form of posts pertaining to it?

A. I have absolutely every right to ignore anything that I want. I am not your employee. Furthermore, you assuming that I ignore things is rather rich, given a private move on my part that occurred not long before said thread was posted. B. That thread was not evidence. That thread was a bunch of people ganging up another for having an unpopular opinion.

Yet in this instance you were very quick to condemn. What made this guy so much worse?[/i]

Again, assumption. That thread was going for hours, as was a conversation about it between staff, before I said a goddamn thing about it, apart from a very brief interaction about the rules. My condemnation came later.

Ironic, you obviously have no idea what I'm referencing either. Maybe you should look into it.

Yes, then he can tell you that I didn't make the decision about your boyfriend's thread, either.

School yard behavior? We were trying to get him to spit out what he wanted to say once and for all so we never had to have it spewed out onto every thread again. The fact you posted on there means you saw every link to his posts presented but failed to read them then you proceeded to put up a post without checking if the thread had a point. You're right, you're not my employee. You're a moderator. Racism may not be against the rules, nationalism may not be against the rules but I'm fairly certain turning every topic you possibly can towards those subjects is. At the very least its spam, opinions are fine as long as you don't repeat one opinion again, and again, and again every chance you get like a pokemon saying its own name. I don't know if the other moderators witnessed it or not but I know you did and I know the only thing you did was insult people trying to resolve a situation which shouldn't have made it this far. The thread was not evidence, the posts presented were.
I never claimed you were evil, in many ways I respect some of your views and your decisions but in this case you were wrong. As was anyone else who had the status to resolve this but silently didn't.
Gay jokes, typical.

[Faith No More]

Putting forth the premise that our nation is inferior compared to his isn't political? Also, wouldn't you penalise someone who brought up abortion in every thread he could? You guys don't feel that allowing him to bait people into arguing on race and creed on a regular basis isn't going to eventually blow up in your faces? Even I've felt tempted to take the bait, that talk is controversial at the best of times but the way he puts it? If someone takes him up on it shitstorm won't even describe it. You're intelligent enough to know that it isn't worth the risk.

If you don't like what he says, you are free to ignore him. If you feel he is baiting then report the post. If a shitstorm starts, we will deal with it, but what you are proposing is censoring his speech, which I can assure you the staff will not do. People have the freedom here to say what they wish unless they violate the rules. If allowing people to speak their views no matter how unpopular isn't worth the risk of a shitstorm reaction to said views, then the freedom to speak your views that we have here is worthless.

The thread made was created as a means for him to spit out his agenda and he *does* have an agenda. The theory was that if he got it out of his system he'd never bring it up again. I think I speak for most of us when I say that would be preferable to being baited by his nationalist nonsense on a regular basis. Now resolve it that way, resolve it your way or wait for some poor bastard whos stupid enough to rise to his bullshit to force you to resolve it the messy way but either way this will eventually be resolved.

Mehmet's posts only have the power you give them. If you don't react to them, they are meaningless. You say to resolve the issue, but the only issue you here is one of your making. If everyone ignores him, perhaps he will get tired of spouting his shit. The fact that you can't ignore it, however, is not a reason to silence him.

[Reforged]

Mehmet's posts only have the power you give them. If you don't react to them, they are meaningless. You say to resolve the issue, but the only issue you here is one of your making. If everyone ignores him, perhaps he will get tired of spouting his shit. The fact that you can't ignore it, however, is not a reason to silence him.

My point wasn't simply the fact that it was annoying but that it turns every thread he decides to contaiminate to a particular subject of his choosing. Is this not an imposition on everyone involved?
I mean sound logic and fair enough but can we not pretend this is simply a matter of people not liking what he says? If that were the case this point would be put forward against every fanatic that comes on here. The fact of the matter is they don't do what he does, even most fanatics have the manners and common decency to start a thread on the subject they want to chat about as opposed to monopolising other peoples.
He doesn't, that really says it all.

[Faith No More]

If we don't allow him to keep bringing it up, then we have to stop theists from always bringing god up. We would have to stop atheists from always bringing up the idea that god doesn't exist. We would have to stop everyone from repeatedly bringing up their political views. Everyone here repeats their own beliefs and ideaologies in multiple threads. The only difference here being that Mehmet's beliefs are extremely unpopular.

[Reforged]

If we don't allow him to keep bringing it up, then we have to stop theists from always bringing god up. We would have to stop atheists from always bringing up the idea that god doesn't exist. We would have to stop everyone from repeatedly bringing up their political views. Everyone here repeats their own beliefs and ideaologies in multiple threads. The only difference here being that Mehmet's beliefs are extremely unpopular.

No, sorry. The real difference is that he will take a subject that had nothing whatsoever to do with nationalism and he will slowly but surely worm his way to it anyway. Its a clear agenda. I'm not saying that peoples opinions should be banned or they shouldn't be allowed to repeat them, that would be ridiculous. I'm saying they shouldn't take presidence over every unrelated subject. If I went on every thread on a subject to do with theism, atheism, deism, whatever and turned alot of those threads into a bucket I spewed all my opinions on why my countries better than yours and why your country sucks (not saying I think that, just using myself as an example) you know I would be condemned faster than I could blink.
Its basically a veiled form of spam.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Mehmet's posts only have the power you give them. If you don't react to them, they are meaningless. You say to resolve the issue, but the only issue you here is one of your making. If everyone ignores him, perhaps he will get tired of spouting his shit. The fact that you can't ignore it, however, is not a reason to silence him.

My point wasn't simply the fact that it was annoying but that it turns every thread he decides to contaiminate to a particular subject of his choosing. Is this not an imposition on everyone involved?
I mean sound logic and fair enough but can we not pretend this is simply a matter of people not liking what he says? If that were the case this point would be put forward against every fanatic that comes on here. The fact of the matter is they don't do what he does, even most fanatics have the manners and common decency to start a thread on the subject they want to chat about as opposed to monopolising other peoples.
He doesn't, that really says it all.

Well, I have started a thread about nationalism, friend. You are free to browse through the politics section's topics.
Besides, I've already made my views on who has provocated who very clear.
Either you agree with it, or you don't. But if you really, really don't want to see my posts, or want me to be punished for them, maybe you should talk to the staff about re-making the rules.
As far as I'm concerned, I've only been warned once here for breaking forum rules. If you think that I deserve a harsher punishment, and you think that the mods and admins are not up to it, let the public mete out my punishment.
Or say, what is your idea? What do you think should be done with me?

No, sorry. The real difference is that he will take a subject that had nothing whatsoever to do with nationalism and he will slowly but surely worm his way to it anyway. Its a clear agenda. I'm not saying that peoples opinions should be banned or they shouldn't be allowed to repeat them, that would be ridiculous. I'm saying they shouldn't take presidence over every unrelated subject. If I went on every thread on a subject to do with theism, atheism, deism, whatever and turned alot of those threads into a bucket I spewed all my opinions on why my countries better than yours and why your country sucks (not saying I think that, just using myself as an example) you know I would be condemned faster than I could blink.
Its basically a veiled form of spam.

You surely talk a lot, but do you have anything to back it up, friend?
Show me at least ten threads where I've explicitely derailed the thread with nationalistic agenda.
I accept you as my prosecutor, and my judge.

[Shell B]

To be fair, quite often other people are the ones bringing up nationalism to bait him. I have seen several instances where the conversation is about something else entirely and someone says, "Oh, that's because they aren't Turkish, right, kilic?" or something along those lines. Would you have us start warning everyone who does that as well?

The bottom line here is, RD, that I was not the only staff member reading that thread and you know damn well that other staff members saw it because Darwinian posted in it and plenty of them gave kudos in it. Also, we are not going to moderate posts that are not against the rules no matter who does not like it. In the interest of keeping private things private, I won't disclose actions I have taken that you have not seen, but I am going to ask you to stop making assumptions about my perceived actions or inactions as an admin. You do not have even a small idea of what I do and do not do because you do not see the conversations I have with the rest of the staff and we do not publicly disclose warnings, unless the member his or herself brings them up. That is all there is to it. You can argue it all you want, but, I assure you, many of us have been here since close to the beginning and what you fear will not come to pass. We've had worse people than kilic here who weren't even racist, or nationalist or anything else that most atheists find offensive and, lo and behold, the worst that has happened is that people storm off either never to come back or to come back and pretend it never happened. This will be no different.