Why I'm not an Atheist and believe in what I believe.

[Mystic]

Need to first demonstrate that souls even exist, and god. Why would either of them exist? Why assume they do?

Here I am just assuming it's logically possible. Then the next question is, is whether we have genuine knowledge of God and soul and a relationship between the two.

I think both questions are valid. One question asks if it's possible while the other asks does one exist.

Sure both questions are valid. I guess we should ask both questions.

[Taqiyya Mockingbird]

Everyone has a choice to make. Many Muslims believe killing apostates is wrong even though their scholars teach otherwise. Why, because they chose to. It's the right decision, but never the less a choice.[/quiote]

And again, this is irrelevant to your assertions of the existence of your gawd-x.

The question is, whom made the right decision here? To assert God exists and has given us knowledge of himself, so I made right decision would be circular reasoning. To assert God doesn't exist or that he exists but hasn't given knowledge of himself, so I made wrong decision would be circular reasoning.

To assert a bunch of nonsensical word salad is circular reasoning, too.

It seems it comes down to seeing whether it's genuine knowledge or not. We can agree to disagree on that decision, but up to that decision, I think we should agree.

And this where I want to reach an agreement.

Too bad. You haven't gone anywhere at all. And you will not go anywhere until you show evidence to support your assertion of the existence of a gawd, and for the existence of ONLY your particular version of it.

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I think a more rational stance when regarding belief in god would be I think is agnostic theist.

Did you mean "agnostic Atheist"?

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[quote='MysticKnight' pid='297049' dateline='1339247683']

Well to me if God exists, he can give us knowledge of anything he wants. This seems to be a solid premise.

If we take a god's existence as a given that still tells us nothing of its disposition toward humans. Your scenario hinges on a lot of ifs. The god can give us knowledge of its existence if it wants. The god could be the basis of morality* if it was interested in well-being of humans. I also see no reason why a being who doesn't biologically reproduce would be a "he" either.

*Have a look at the Euthyphro dilemma.

Aside from that, if he exists and we are linked to him, it seems possible that we can be aware of this link.

Yes, if someone were all-powerful they would have that ability. You know what they'd also have? Your phone number. And your address. And the ability to take human (or at least physical) form and perform miraculous deeds, demonstrate foreknowledge and repeat your thoughts to you to at least partially establish their divinity. Clearly at least slightly confused - why use such an error prone method of communication?

Also if the nature of greatness, honour, goodness, all have him as the eternal basis, then I don't see why they wouldn't point to Eternal Basis and Person-hood of God.

I think also if we a spirit/soul, then spiritual knowledge, eyes of the soul, is very possible.

Naturally if God exists, he can create us with knowledge of himself. The knowledge would be based on reality and a link to him.

If God is like the Sun behind the rays of morality, greatness, honour, why shouldn't we able to perceive him?

Basically if a god exists it's a fact of reality. I don't really see the point if saying "oh, if this exists, this, this, and this would happen!" I mean, to have fun and wonder about what could be or hypothesise is fine, but to continually muse over the same thing when even its most basic assumption hasn't been established is, to me, wasteful.

^All of this.

[Ace Otana]

Here I am just assuming it's logically possible. Then the next question is, is whether we have genuine knowledge of God and soul and a relationship between the two.

Logic doesn't actually prove anything nor demonstrates if something exists or not.
When it comes to god, we've got nothing. Nothing that actually supports his/it's existence. Same with pixies, it's probably possible that they exist but do they actually exist? What suggests that they do? Same problem.

Sure both questions are valid. I guess we should ask both questions.

Indeed, like the impossible structure - .
It's not possible because it violates the laws of physics. So the question if there is one becomes meaningless. So...is it possible for a god to exist?

[Tempus]

Clearly at least slightly confused - why use such an error prone method of communication?

I'm a little confused by what you meant here. Perhaps you can clarify.

Ah, sorry about that. I meant: "Clearly you're at least slightly confused [about whether you have knowledge or not] - why use such an error prone method of communication?" But I accept maybe I misunderstood.

Basically I meant why not use a clearer way of conveying this knowledge so that confusion could be more easily dispelled. Presumably this god is aware of such confusion and has the power to clear stuff up, but chooses not to. That is odd. If I contain within me this knowledge, I'm not aware of it. And if this god wants me to have it why not just create me aware of it and prevent situations where I would be unaware? That doesn't make any sense.

[Mystic]

Logic doesn't actually prove anything

Can you elaborate? I think logic proves many things.

When it comes to god, we've got nothing.

I see this is from your perspective.

Nothing that actually supports his/it's existence. Same with pixies, it's probably possible that they exist but do they actually exist? What suggests that they do? Same problem.

Well I believe God is different in the sense he has a relationship to the soul. I believe is is the eternal basis of goodness, the source of the spirit, the ultimate greatness that is the basis to all greatness. He is a universal foundation of reality.

Prixies at most are possible being. However God is believed to be a necessary being, hence, if he exists, then logic knowing he must exist, is not the same as prixies.

Sure both questions are valid. I guess we should ask both questions.
Indeed, like the impossible structure - . It's not possible because it violates the laws of physics. So the question if there is one becomes meaningless. So...is it possible for a god to exist?

What do you think? Of course you know my answer (Hint: it's in the OP as well as under my religious views) but what is your answer?

Do you think Ultimate Greatness is logically possible?

[Faith No More]

But a character like Batman if he were to exist, to me, would be a god.

Batman? No. Superman? Yes. Which is actually why I prefer Batman who is a fallible human driven by his desire to avenge his parents' death. Superman is just a nearly indestructible goody-two-shoes. Batman puts his ass on the line every time he leaves the bat cave.

[Mystic]

I'm a little confused by what you meant here. Perhaps you can clarify.

Ah, sorry about that. I meant: "Clearly you're at least slightly confused [about whether you have knowledge or not] - why use such an error prone method of communication?" But I accept maybe I misunderstood.

Basically I meant why not use a clearer way of conveying this knowledge so that confusion could be more easily dispelled. Presumably this god is aware of such confusion and has the power to clear stuff up, but chooses not to. That is odd. If I contain within me this knowledge, I'm not aware of it. And if this god wants me to have it why not just create me aware of it and prevent situations where I would be unaware? That doesn't make any sense.

Well here is the thing. I think free-will and beliefs go together. Those whom did 9/11 would not have done it, if they didn't believe in what they are doing.

When you chose to believe it is wrong, it's a choice, but it's the right one. Choice doesn't mean it is baseless.

Ofcourse if God wanted everyone to have it, then everyone would have it. But perhaps he wants people to chose to have it, in the same way we chose to believe killing apostates for leaving a religion be it a true one or not, is wrong.

It's a choice. Not everyone does the same choice.

Perhaps he wants you to pull out the sword of God so to speak instead of just being forced to believe he exists. Perhaps he wants you you to chose to recognize him in the midst of the falsehood.

The next thing is aside from the soul being given properly basic knowledge, there is no way else to know about God really.

Suppose he writes in the sky that he exists, how do you know he is good? how do you know he is loving? how do you know he is great?

For all you know, without knowledge, he is evil, and intends to torture you.

Everything he tells you can be a lie. He can be lying to you.

Even after you die, you don't know if he is telling the truth to you.

So you can see, if we are to have knowledge to him, coming down to us or talking to us or writting in the sky or bringing a million books down from the sky, all would not really prove anything, aside from a creator.

Proving a Creator does nothing, because you know nothing about the Creator.

[Ace Otana]

Can you elaborate? I think logic proves many things.

Logic is a Philosophical concept, not a method to prove or disprove things. Even science isn't about proving. It's a tool to test, measure, observe and verify. A tool to help understand the unknown.

I see this is from your perspective.

Have yet to see any support, been waiting many years to see some.

Prixies at most are possible being. However God is believed to be a necessary being, hence.

It's also acknowledged that god probably isn't necessary at all.

What do you think? Of course you know my answer (Hint: it's in the OP as well as under my religious views) but what is your answer?

If god is outside of the laws of nature, I can't see how he/it's possible.

Do you think Ultimate Greatness

What is ultimate greatness? Greatness is a concept, but what is it outside of that?

[Mystic]

But a character like Batman if he were to exist, to me, would be a god.

Batman? No. Superman? Yes. Which is actually why I prefer Batman who is a fallible human driven by his desire to avenge his parents' death. Superman is just a nearly indestructible goody-two-shoes. Batman puts his ass on the line every time he leaves the bat cave.

I prefer Batman too.

[Faith No More]

MysticKnight, you are making many assumptions to justify your belief. The biggest assumption you have made is that your intutition is reliable, and from what I can tell you have justified that with the idea that you believe god would instill this knowledge within you. You are you using intuition to prove god exists, and then saying that your intuition is correct because god exists. This is circular reasoning.