Posts: 25314
Threads: 239
Joined: August 26, 2010
Reputation:
156
RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 24, 2012 at 10:45 pm
(This post was last modified: August 24, 2012 at 10:46 pm by Cyberman.)
I agree completely. My own position on the historicity of the character isn't exactly kept a secret - I'm a moderator over at the JesusNeverExisted forum, that ought to be a clue - but whatever your opinions on the issue, the fact that someone has to hide behind an hastily-constructed wall of names and thinks that somehow imparts legitimacy to their argument by some kind of osmosis is incredibly revealing. It's almost as though they either have no confidence that their argument could stand on its own merit, or even that they have no argument at all. I'm far too polite to say which.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
Posts: 53
Threads: 1
Joined: August 24, 2012
Reputation:
0
RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 24, 2012 at 11:06 pm
(This post was last modified: August 24, 2012 at 11:09 pm by Atom.)
(August 24, 2012 at 10:26 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: (August 24, 2012 at 9:16 pm)Atom Wrote: Here is Bart Ehrman answering your question. It seems he and virtually all academic historians disagree with the presupposition that Jesus was not a real person.
... Fallacy of appeal to majority, authority, and consensus. I think I'm on more solid ground appealing to a near unanimity of peer reviewed academic scholars on the testimony of Bart Ehrman as a hostile witness than you are citing yourself as your own authority.
Fallacy of appeal to majority, authority, and consensus, right back at you, my friend. 
Christianity is grounded in history, the facts of science, the rules of logic, and verifiable biblical truths.
Posts: 25314
Threads: 239
Joined: August 26, 2010
Reputation:
156
RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 24, 2012 at 11:14 pm
Oh, I simply can not wait for Min to get his teeth into this (false as they may be)!
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
Posts: 66519
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 24, 2012 at 11:16 pm
(This post was last modified: August 24, 2012 at 11:17 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Rather than simply repeating that appeal, why not just present the strongest evidence (in your estimation) that the "majority of peer reviewed academic scholars" has? What convinced them?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 3226
Threads: 244
Joined: April 17, 2012
Reputation:
54
RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 24, 2012 at 11:25 pm
(August 24, 2012 at 11:06 pm)Atom Wrote: (August 24, 2012 at 10:26 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Fallacy of appeal to majority, authority, and consensus. I think I'm on more solid ground appealing to a near unanimity of peer reviewed academic scholars on the testimony of Bart Ehrman as a hostile witness than you are citing yourself as your own authority.
I'm looking at what I wrote I can't see where I myself employed appeal to authority. I was merely giving you a little background to the debate. Care to be specific?
How do you know you're on "solid ground" if you never have listened to both (or more) sides of a debate?
Quote:Fallacy of appeal to majority, authority, and consensus, right back at you, my friend.
And now you're committing Tu quoque. 
My ignore list
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
Posts: 25314
Threads: 239
Joined: August 26, 2010
Reputation:
156
RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 24, 2012 at 11:41 pm
Two posts, two fallacies. That's what I call value for money.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
Posts: 53
Threads: 1
Joined: August 24, 2012
Reputation:
0
RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 24, 2012 at 11:55 pm
(August 24, 2012 at 11:16 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Rather than simply repeating that appeal, why not just present the strongest evidence (in your estimation) that the "majority of peer reviewed academic scholars" has? What convinced them? Normally I would agree with you. I'd rather talk data and evidence than exchange assertions. There is problem presenting more evidence at this stage in this discussion, however.
Making the case for Jesus' historical existence is an involved topic that starts with the presentation of data supported by the academic consensus. If the significance or existence of the academic consensus on all such data is denied, there is no point in presenting more such data.
Make sense?
Christianity is grounded in history, the facts of science, the rules of logic, and verifiable biblical truths.
Posts: 3226
Threads: 244
Joined: April 17, 2012
Reputation:
54
RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 25, 2012 at 12:13 am
(This post was last modified: August 25, 2012 at 12:14 am by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
(August 24, 2012 at 11:55 pm)Atom Wrote: (August 24, 2012 at 11:16 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Rather than simply repeating that appeal, why not just present the strongest evidence (in your estimation) that the "majority of peer reviewed academic scholars" has? What convinced them? Normally I would agree with you. I'd rather talk data and evidence than exchange assertions. There is problem presenting more evidence at this stage in this discussion, however.
Making the case for Jesus' historical existence is an involved topic that starts with the presentation of data supported by the academic consensus. If the significance or existence of the academic consensus on all such data is denied, there is no point in presenting more such data.
Make sense?
The truthfulness of falsity of something is not determined by consensus. It's fallacious to say that "x" is true because 80 percent or 90 percent or 99.99 percent or even 100 percent of scholars are in agreement on "x is true."
There is also the whole issue of how consensus is known. (See my question to Carrier here: http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/arch...ment-16922 )
I don't know what the others here would think, but I really don't care about consensus. All I'm concerned with is whether the interpretation of the evidence and the arguments are good.
My ignore list
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
Posts: 5336
Threads: 198
Joined: June 24, 2010
Reputation:
77
RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 25, 2012 at 12:50 am
I'd just love to know what Bart Ehrman means by "historical Jesus".
I've said before it's like arguing for a "historical Superman". Just like Superman but without all the superpowers? Then he's not Superman then.
Seriously, what's left once you've stripped out all the miracles and divinity? And what can we know about him even if we were to assume he existed? How can we ever know what he really taught, when exactly he really lived and what his ministry really was about?
The only details we have at all come to us from Christian mythology, and if we throw that out, we also throw out any sources we have to answer any of these questions.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Posts: 3226
Threads: 244
Joined: April 17, 2012
Reputation:
54
RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
August 25, 2012 at 12:59 am
Well, historical Jesus of course means human teacher who had a small set of followers and maybe was a "miracle" worker (where miracle worker = magician). Not the same as biblical Jesus.
My ignore list
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
|
