Where did the Jesus myth come from?

[Minimalist]

There's one more that you had best learn about, too.

Tacitus. Xtians get all hot and bothered by the supposed reference in Annales but the simple fact is that not a single ancient writer, xtian or pagan, referred to this passage. There may have been no reason for pagan writers to mention it.... although Nero was not popular among the Roman upper classes who did all the writing...but certainly xtian writers should have been trumpeting it to anyone who would listen.

But, instead we get this. Sulpicius Severus, a 5th century writer wrote in Book Two of Chronica. Note that Severus does not credit Tacitus as his source.

Chronica Book II CHAPTER XXIX.

Is the meantime, the number of the Christians being now very large, it happened that Rome was destroyed by fire, while Nero was stationed at Antium. But the opinion of all cast the odium of causing the fire upon the emperor, and he was believed in this way to have sought for the glory of building a new city. And in fact, Nero could not by any means he tried escape from the charge that the fire had been caused by his orders. He therefore turned the accusation against the Christians, and the most cruel tortures were accordingly inflicted upon the innocent. Nay, even new kinds of death were invented, so that, being covered in the skins of wild beasts, they perished by being devoured by dogs, while many were crucified or slain by fire, and not a few were set apart for this purpose, that, when the day came to a close, they should be consumed to serve for light during the night. In this way, cruelty tint began to be manifested against the Christians. Afterwards, too, their religion was prohibited by laws which were enacted; and by edicts openly set forth it was proclaimed unlawful to
be a Christian.

Here is the passage from Annales.

Annales Book XV Ch. 44

Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

Also note that the Pilate reference and the Christus reference do not appear in Chronica.

So it begins to look that the Tacitus reference is a much later interpolation by xtian scribes looking to beef up the martyrdom bullshit story which they started spreading after they came to power in the 4th century. Note where Severus claims that "Afterwards, too, their religion was prohibited by laws which were enacted; and by edicts openly set forth it was proclaimed unlawful to be a Christian." This is false. The earliest offical proclamations by the emperor date from the mid-3d century under Decius.

[greneknight]

There's one more that you had best learn about, too.

Tacitus. Xtians get all hot and bothered by the supposed reference in Annales but the simple fact is that not a single ancient writer, xtian or pagan, referred to this passage. There may have been no reason for pagan writers to mention it.... although Nero was not popular among the Roman upper classes who did all the writing...but certainly xtian writers should have been trumpeting it to anyone who would listen.

But, instead we get this. Sulpicius Severus, a 5th century writer wrote in Book Two of Chronica. Note that Severus does not credit Tacitus as his source.

Chronica Book II CHAPTER XXIX.

Is the meantime, the number of the Christians being now very large, it happened that Rome was destroyed by fire, while Nero was stationed at Antium. But the opinion of all cast the odium of causing the fire upon the emperor, and he was believed in this way to have sought for the glory of building a new city. And in fact, Nero could not by any means he tried escape from the charge that the fire had been caused by his orders. He therefore turned the accusation against the Christians, and the most cruel tortures were accordingly inflicted upon the innocent. Nay, even new kinds of death were invented, so that, being covered in the skins of wild beasts, they perished by being devoured by dogs, while many were crucified or slain by fire, and not a few were set apart for this purpose, that, when the day came to a close, they should be consumed to serve for light during the night. In this way, cruelty tint began to be manifested against the Christians. Afterwards, too, their religion was prohibited by laws which were enacted; and by edicts openly set forth it was proclaimed unlawful to
be a Christian.

Here is the passage from Annales.

Annales Book XV Ch. 44

Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

Also note that the Pilate reference and the Christus reference do not appear in Chronica.

So it begins to look that the Tacitus reference is a much later interpolation by xtian scribes looking to beef up the martyrdom bullshit story which they started spreading after they came to power in the 4th century. Note where Severus claims that "Afterwards, too, their religion was prohibited by laws which were enacted; and by edicts openly set forth it was proclaimed unlawful to be a Christian." This is false. The earliest offical proclamations by the emperor date from the mid-3d century under Decius.

Thanks. This is highly informative. I'm saving it in my gmail for future reference.

[Cyberman]

Lock them all up. That's the only way to save the USA and the rest of the world.

We locked Kent Hovind up at least.

Yeah, but for the wrong reasons. Tax fraud instead of just plain fraud. You couldn't even get that right.

@grene: if you want to acquaint yourself with some of the more strident fundies, and you really ought to if only by way of inoculation as well as making future conversation easier, you could do a lot worse than checking out the well-regarded Youtube atheist Thunderf00t's excellent video series "Why Do People Laugh At Creationists?" Equal parts scary, entertaining and sad.

[Atom]

Suetonius and Pliny the Younger do mention Jesus

No. Suetonius and Pliny mention "christians" ( or chrestians. in Suetonius' case). None of them ever heard of fucking jesus.

"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius by Suetonius

This confirms the accuracy of Luke's account in Acts 18:2 "There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome."

"Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the CHRISTians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition." Life of Clausius by Suetonius. (emphasis mine).

Suetonius wrote about CHRISTians in the Roman Capital 20 years after the crucifixion. He certainly knew that CHRISTians were being punished for their beliefs. If he knew what a CHRISTian was he certainly knew about CHRIST Jesus.

Suetonius was writing about the Life of Claudius, not Jewish or Christian history, so these references are extremely fortuitous and significant, They can't rationally be shrugged of without reason.

In Epistles X.96 Pliny the Younge, Roman governor in Bithynia AD112 wrote to Emperor Trajan to seek advice as to how to treat the christians. He was concerned that they chose death rather than bow to a statue of the emperor or "curse CHRIST, which a genuine CHRISTian cannot be induced to do." Text at: http://www.ancient-literature.com/rome_p...e_X96.html

Another very strong bit of evidence is that there were a lot of people willing to die for the Christ.

Obviously, both Suetonius and Pliny knew about Jesus Christ. There's the data.

Note also that if these people referred to "Jesus", there were too many around to differentiate, hence they write of Christ and Christians.

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

...

Another very strong bit of evidence is that there were a lot of people willing to die for the Christ.

...

Which is not an uncommon or unexpected thing for cults of today or cults back then.

---

No. Suetonius and Pliny mention "christians" ( or chrestians. in Suetonius' case). None of them ever heard of fucking jesus.

"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius by Suetonius

This confirms the accuracy of Luke's account in Acts 18:2 "There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome."

"Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the CHRISTians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition." Life of Clausius by Suetonius. (emphasis mine).

Suetonius wrote about CHRISTians in the Roman Capital 20 years after the crucifixion. He certainly knew that CHRISTians were being punished for their beliefs. If he knew what a CHRISTian was he certainly knew about CHRIST Jesus.

Suetonius was writing about the Life of Claudius, not Jewish or Christian history, so these references are extremely fortuitous and significant, They can't rationally be shrugged of without reason.

In Epistles X.96 Pliny the Younge, Roman governor in Bithynia AD112 wrote to Emperor Trajan to seek advice as to how to treat the christians. He was concerned that they chose death rather than bow to a statue of the emperor or "curse CHRIST, which a genuine CHRISTian cannot be induced to do." Text at: http://www.ancient-literature.com/rome_p...e_X96.html

Another very strong bit of evidence is that there were a lot of people willing to die for the Christ.

Obviously, both Suetonius and Pliny knew about Jesus Christ. There's the data.

Note also that if these people referred to "Jesus", there were too many around to differentiate, hence they write of Christ and Christians.

None of the above information proves that Jesus existed. All you can tell from it is that a Christian movement existed. And we don't know the writer knew that Jesus existed independently of what Christians told about him.

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, he knew about christians so he must have known about christ? No dice.

You ever heard of a pagan? Ever heard of Xihe?

[Cyberman]

No. Suetonius and Pliny mention "christians" ( or chrestians. in Suetonius' case). None of them ever heard of fucking jesus.

"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius by Suetonius

This confirms the accuracy of Luke's account in Acts 18:2 "There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome."

"Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the CHRISTians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition." Life of Clausius by Suetonius. (emphasis mine).

Suetonius wrote about CHRISTians in the Roman Capital 20 years after the crucifixion. He certainly knew that CHRISTians were being punished for their beliefs. If he knew what a CHRISTian was he certainly knew about CHRIST Jesus.

Suetonius was writing about the Life of Claudius, not Jewish or Christian history, so these references are extremely fortuitous and significant, They can't rationally be shrugged of without reason.

In Epistles X.96 Pliny the Younge, Roman governor in Bithynia AD112 wrote to Emperor Trajan to seek advice as to how to treat the christians. He was concerned that they chose death rather than bow to a statue of the emperor or "curse CHRIST, which a genuine CHRISTian cannot be induced to do." Text at: http://www.ancient-literature.com/rome_p...e_X96.html

Another very strong bit of evidence is that there were a lot of people willing to die for the Christ.

Obviously, both Suetonius and Pliny knew about Jesus Christ. There's the data.

Note also that if these people referred to "Jesus", there were too many around to differentiate, hence they write of Christ and Christians.

But no-one's arguing for the existence of xtians. We know only too well that they exist and have done so since at least the second century CE. Presenting evidence of the historical existence of xtians as though it's evidence for the historicity of JC is no different from producing children's letters to Santa as evidence for the Jolly Old Elf himself.

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

No. Suetonius and Pliny mention "christians" ( or chrestians. in Suetonius' case). None of them ever heard of fucking jesus.

"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius by Suetonius

This confirms the accuracy of Luke's account in Acts 18:2 "There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome."

...

Also what makes you think "Chrestus" is at all a reference to Jesus? When did Jesus ever go to Rome? When did Jesus ever call an "instigation" and how did it get to Rome? And how does the reference in Acts confirm at all that this talking about Jesus?

[Minimalist]

"Chrestus" was a common Greek slave name. It sort of meant "good" in the sense of "useful."

Suetonius' "Chrestus" is recorded in the Life of Claudius which makes it a bit too late to be friggin' jesus.... even if "jesus" ever made it to Rome which seems to be a detail that doesn't make it into the so-called "gospels."

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

I should also suggest that while you are relying on apologetics from J.P. Holding, you should at least be objective and read Carrier's approximately 600 paged book "Not the Impossible Faith" that focuses exclusively on debunking Holding's arguments.