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RE: how do you forgive yourself?
July 16, 2012 at 3:23 pm
Jeffonthenet Wrote:Me too. Is it wrong to tell a person, if there is only one medical procedure that can cure them, that they ought to use it? I would be uncaring if I didn't do everything I could to convince them that this was the only thing that could cure them.
And here the abhorent arrogance of your religion rears its ugly head. You assume that Christianity is the only way to happiness, and everyone can only find happiness through it. This is why I think all Christians should stay silent if the only advice they can give someone having troubles is to delve into Christianity. It's a disingenuous plug for their religion, preying on people in vulnerable situations.
Shame on you.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: how do you forgive yourself?
July 16, 2012 at 10:00 pm
(This post was last modified: July 16, 2012 at 10:43 pm by Jeffonthenet.)
Quote: (July 14, 2012 at 11:25 am)Jeffonthenet Wrote: Yes. I question my beliefs every day.
I'm assuming you find yourself lost in the same mind-numbing evasion game you display on these forums, then?
Never answer yourself?
Make a valid point to yourself, only to ignore it?
Sound familiar?
What point have I ignored? Present it now and I will answer it fully. Perhaps your difficulty is because I receive way too many responses for anything I say here to reply to them all and still have a life.
(July 16, 2012 at 3:23 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Jeffonthenet Wrote:Me too. Is it wrong to tell a person, if there is only one medical procedure that can cure them, that they ought to use it? I would be uncaring if I didn't do everything I could to convince them that this was the only thing that could cure them.
And here the abhorent arrogance of your religion rears its ugly head. You assume that Christianity is the only way to happiness, and everyone can only find happiness through it. This is why I think all Christians should stay silent if the only advice they can give someone having troubles is to delve into Christianity. It's a disingenuous plug for their religion, preying on people in vulnerable situations.
Shame on you.
Faithnomore, I honestly believe that the knowledge of God through Jesus Christ is the only way to procure eternal happiness. I don't see how it is arrogant for me to advocate for what I honestly believe is true, especially since I have questioned my beliefs ad-nauseum. I don't think you refuted my example at all. In response to the OP, I used the bare bones facts along with logical reasoning to come to a logical conclusion. If you disagree with my conclusion you should go after my logic. Going after my person and religion is the logical fallacy ad-homineum.
"the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate" (1 Cor. 1:19)
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RE: how do you forgive yourself?
July 17, 2012 at 1:02 am
Calling you out on your inability to understand that your beliefs are simply beliefs is not ad-hominem. You have no monopoly on truth, yet you claim to be advocating the only cure. Therein lies the arrogance. A simple qualifier such as "I believe" before statements such as the one I quoted would alleviate this problem.
I'm sorry if I came off harsh, but dispensing advice to reexamine religious beliefs that have been cast aside is a pet peeve of mine. People should have the right to choose their own beleifs, and any claims on the truth directed towards another come across as an attempt to influence that choice.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: how do you forgive yourself?
July 18, 2012 at 7:28 pm
(July 17, 2012 at 1:02 am)Faith No More Wrote: Calling you out on your inability to understand that your beliefs are simply beliefs is not ad-hominem. You have no monopoly on truth, yet you claim to be advocating the only cure. Therein lies the arrogance. A simple qualifier such as "I believe" before statements such as the one I quoted would alleviate this problem.
I'm sorry if I came off harsh, but dispensing advice to reexamine religious beliefs that have been cast aside is a pet peeve of mine. People should have the right to choose their own beleifs, and any claims on the truth directed towards another come across as an attempt to influence that choice.
People definitely have the right to choose their religious beliefs. However, if you are saying that simply the statement: there is only one way to God, through Jesus Christ, is arrogant, then it seems to me that so is the statement: "there is only one medicine that can cure such and such disease."
If the latter statement (there is only one medicine…) is true, it is definitely not arrogant. And, so it seems to me, it is with the former statement. ("there is only one way to God…")
So its potentiality of being arrogant is dependent on its truth value. Therefore, it seems to me that you would have to claim that there is not only one way to God in order to show that such a statement is arrogant. However, that presupposes that Christianity is false and so is sort of like arguing in a circle.
"the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate" (1 Cor. 1:19)
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RE: how do you forgive yourself?
July 18, 2012 at 11:53 pm
Shift the burden of proof much?
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RE: how do you forgive yourself?
July 19, 2012 at 1:15 am
(This post was last modified: July 19, 2012 at 1:16 am by Jeffonthenet.)
I was making conditional statements (indicated by the "if"), and as such not assuming Christianity was true, but for the sake of argument making no judgment either way, and so not committing myself to any burden of proof for theism. If I did not do this, people would accuse me (and rightly so) of arguing in a circle. If you require me to prove the existence of God in order to say, "If God exists, then Y," I think you are making a mistake.
"the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate" (1 Cor. 1:19)
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RE: how do you forgive yourself?
July 19, 2012 at 8:35 am
Jeffonthenet Wrote:People definitely have the right to choose their religious beliefs. However, if you are saying that simply the statement: there is only one way to God, through Jesus Christ, is arrogant, then it seems to me that so is the statement: "there is only one medicine that can cure such and such disease."
If the latter statement (there is only one medicine…) is true, it is definitely not arrogant. And, so it seems to me, it is with the former statement. ("there is only one way to God…")
Unfortunately for you, your comparison here actually underscores my point. The reason we can say that there is only one medicine to cure such a disease is because it has been scientifically tested and verified. There is no belief in the medicine necessary, because we have knowledge, gained from the scientific method, that the cure works. Your religion, however, cannot be verified, so it must be believed in. It's when you give other people advice using your beliefs but peddling them as truth that arrogance comes in.
Quote:So its potentiality of being arrogant is dependent on its truth value. Therefore, it seems to me that you would have to claim that there is not only one way to God in order to show that such a statement is arrogant. However, that presupposes that Christianity is false and so is sort of like arguing in a circle.
Incorrect, the validity of your beliefs has no bearing on arrogance. What matters, however, is what you can prove. You cannot prove that there is a god and he is the Christian god, so when you go around peddling it as truth, that is arrogant.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: how do you forgive yourself?
July 19, 2012 at 9:12 am
(This post was last modified: July 19, 2012 at 9:14 am by Jeffonthenet.)
(July 19, 2012 at 8:35 am)Faith No More Wrote: Jeffonthenet Wrote:People definitely have the right to choose their religious beliefs. However, if you are saying that simply the statement: there is only one way to God, through Jesus Christ, is arrogant, then it seems to me that so is the statement: "there is only one medicine that can cure such and such disease."
If the latter statement (there is only one medicine…) is true, it is definitely not arrogant. And, so it seems to me, it is with the former statement. ("there is only one way to God…")
Unfortunately for you, your comparison here actually underscores my point. The reason we can say that there is only one medicine to cure such a disease is because it has been scientifically tested and verified. There is no belief in the medicine necessary, because we have knowledge, gained from the scientific method, that the cure works. Your religion, however, cannot be verified, so it must be believed in. It's when you give other people advice using your beliefs but peddling them as truth that arrogance comes in.
Faithnomore, I appreciate the time you took to give a reasoned response.  However, I still disagree and let me tell you why. You say that one is justified in saying that there is only one medicine to cure a disease because it can be scientifically proven while mine faith cannot. You say also say, "your religion… cannot be verified, so it must not be believed in."
You seem to be saying that things which cannot be verified by the scientific method should not be believed in. However, this statement itself cannot be verified by the scientific method. Neither can things like the existence of the past, basic logic. And it doesn't follow that these things are irrational to believe in because they cannot be verified by the scientific method.
Quote:Quote:So its potentiality of being arrogant is dependent on its truth value. Therefore, it seems to me that you would have to claim that there is not only one way to God in order to show that such a statement is arrogant. However, that presupposes that Christianity is false and so is sort of like arguing in a circle.
Incorrect, the validity of your beliefs has no bearing on arrogance. What matters, however, is what you can prove. You cannot prove that there is a god and he is the Christian god, so when you go around peddling it as truth, that is arrogant.
You cannot prove that my God does not exist, so does it follow that atheists cannot "peddle" (using your word) the belief that there is no God?
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RE: how do you forgive yourself?
July 19, 2012 at 9:36 am
(July 19, 2012 at 9:12 am)Jeffonthenet Wrote: You cannot prove that my God does not exist, so does it follow that atheists cannot "peddle" (using your word) the belief that there is no God?
But I can laugh at your belief and threat it like any other belief: A bunch of stories that got overblown.
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RE: how do you forgive yourself?
July 19, 2012 at 11:14 am
(This post was last modified: July 19, 2012 at 11:16 am by Skepsis.)
(July 19, 2012 at 9:12 am)Jeffonthenet Wrote: (July 19, 2012 at 8:35 am)Faith No More Wrote: Unfortunately for you, your comparison here actually underscores my point. The reason we can say that there is only one medicine to cure such a disease is because it has been scientifically tested and verified.
You say that one is justified in saying that there is only one medicine to cure a disease because it can be scientifically proven while mine faith cannot. You say also say, "your religion… cannot be verified, so it must not be believed in."
You seem to be saying that things which cannot be verified by the scientific method should not be believed in. However, this statement itself cannot be verified by the scientific method. Neither can things like the existence of the past, basic logic. And it doesn't follow that these things are irrational to believe in because they cannot be verified by the scientific method.
I went back and bolded the part that I felt was more important, while at the same time italicized the "passing thought". It wasn't his point, as far as I can tell, to say that only that which can be tested by the scientific method is real. Sure, he most definitely meant to say that the scientific method is worthy of use to the degree that it can determine truth, which I'm sure you don't disagree with; however, it was an afterthought by which to validate his analogy that he included the scinetific method at all.
The main point was only that which can be verified is allowed to flaunt itself as anything more than a daydream.
Oh, and you can't do that for your sky fairy. That was the point that went over your head.
Quote:Quote:Incorrect, the validity of your beliefs has no bearing on arrogance. What matters, however, is what you can prove. You cannot prove that there is a god and he is the Christian god, so when you go around peddling it as truth, that is arrogant.
Quote:You cannot prove that my God does not exist, so does it follow that atheists cannot "peddle" (using your word) the belief that there is no God?
Atheists don't generally take the position that "there is no God" due to the reprecussions of that position. We can, however, make fun of your God as a fairy tale and a fable, because despite the implication that that God is false, how can one be criticized for making fun of an unproven concept? Making fun a group that worships Santa would be a fair analogy: we can't see Santa, hear Santa, or feel him, but due to rationalizations by the group he is unfalsifiable. That doesn't make him any less worthy of scorn, does it?
*Any edit I made to the quote didn't change the meaning whatsoever, as I only changed how words appeared (bold, underline) to reference that portion of the quote.*
My conclusion is that there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology and, further, that there is no reason to wish that they were true.
Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.
-Bertrand Russell
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