The Creationists' Nightmare

[FallentoReason]

No, you're not. You're looking for cracks, by which I mean excuses. No matter how many times radiocarbon dating or evolution or any scientific process is explained to a creationist, the creationist will default to a heavy dose of goddiditism, and in so doing, somehow expect to be taken seriously.

Explain to me why dinosaur fossils contain C-14, and then tell me who is making excuses.

This is a good point. I've been wondering about this for a while. The suspicious thing though is that I've only ever seen evidence for this from Christians. That could slice both ways though.

[Jackalope]

When God created the earth, He created rocks with the appearance of age--He didn't create magma and wait for it to cool.

So when you call yourself 'undeceived' are you saying God hasn't deceived you yet? Even as a Christian I would have a hard time believing that God e.g. created the stars and light already on its way so that in 6 000 years it would reach us. That is deceitful...

If I recall correctly, the issue of deception in creating the appearance of age is why many young-earth apologists avoid this particular claim, and instead engage in efforts to discredit the evidence (much to my amusement and dismay).

[FallentoReason]

So when you call yourself 'undeceived' are you saying God hasn't deceived you yet? Even as a Christian I would have a hard time believing that God e.g. created the stars and light already on its way so that in 6 000 years it would reach us. That is deceitful...

If I recall correctly, the issue of deception in creating the appearance of age is why many young-earth apologists avoid this particular claim, and instead engage in efforts to discredit the evidence (much to my amusement and dismay).

I think the apologists that have actually had experience will tend to do that. All my friends that haven't had exposure to arguments via forums or whatever else have pulled out the 'easy' answer at some stage to me.

[Godscreated]

I've taught my dogs German, English and hand language, I know it's not that your dogs dumb, it must be your lack of ability to teach.

There is so much wrong in this statement.
1. Dogs are associative learners. You could use the words "Booga Booga" for sit and they would sit. They don't understand "Booga Booga", they just recognize the sounds and your tone of voice (the have also evolved to read human facial emotions).

2. It's called sign language. As an ASL signer, this particularly bothers me.

3. There are some dogs that do not respond as well to training. There are also dogs that excel in it. Aussie Shepherds are amazing learners.

I was not saying the dogs understood languages, I was trying to show that dogs can understand more than one word for commands. If you were to have seen one of my Rotties work, you would have had to think about it for a minute, does he really understand language.
All dogs are easily trainable, I've never seen a dumb dog, I have seen lousy trainers.

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When God created the earth, He created rocks with the appearance of age--He didn't create magma and wait for it to cool.

So when you call yourself 'undeceived' are you saying God hasn't deceived you yet? Even as a Christian I would have a hard time believing that God e.g. created the stars and light already on its way so that in 6 000 years it would reach us. That is deceitful...

God did not create the universe for you, so how could that be deceitful.

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When God created the earth, He created rocks with the appearance of age--He didn't create magma and wait for it to cool. I'm looking for a minor inaccuracy in surface rocks. Like the flat layers in the picture at the bottom of this page: http://www.noapologies.info/How-Do-You-Date-a-Rock-.php (I don't advocate anything else on the page.)

Oh shut up you crazy bastard. Just shut up.

You sound like a badly scratched record.

[FallentoReason]

God did not create the universe for you, so how could that be deceitful.

Because he created it one way with a certain appearance but then says something different about it in the Bible.

[Angrboda]

We have fully anchored dendrochronological serieses going back 11,000 years.


You may take your broken god to the Island Of Misfit Toys for a store credit.

[Jackalope]

I think the apologists that have actually had experience will tend to do that. All my friends that haven't had exposure to arguments via forums or whatever else have pulled out the 'easy' answer at some stage to me.

Well, yeah, I think the average person doesn't tend to think too hard about justifying their beliefs or having a consistent, coherent worldview - theists and atheists alike. The arguments tend to be very ad hoc, not very consistent, and for the most part poorly supported.

People that hang around forums such as this I think tend to be atypical in that regard - we DO think about it, discuss it, debate it, etc etc etc.

Kind of getting off onto a tangent here, but something just occurred to me...

I've been on forums in one form or another since the 1980's. Oftentimes it feels like the arguments are always the same, nobody ever concedes a point, nobody changes their mind. But in retrospect, in my case, that's not really true - I've changed my position on several things (mostly political issues) because of discussions such as the ones we have here - and I looked at my beliefs, and discovered that some were held for irrational reasons I couldn't justify, or even rationalize without self-deception.

[FallentoReason]

I think the apologists that have actually had experience will tend to do that. All my friends that haven't had exposure to arguments via forums or whatever else have pulled out the 'easy' answer at some stage to me.

Well, yeah, I think the average person doesn't tend to think too hard about justifying their beliefs or having a consistent, coherent worldview - theists and atheists alike. The arguments tend to be very ad hoc, not very consistent, and for the most part poorly supported.

People that hang around forums such as this I think tend to be atypical in that regard - we DO think about it, discuss it, debate it, etc etc etc.

Kind of getting off onto a tangent here, but something just occurred to me...

I've been on forums in one form or another since the 1980's. Oftentimes it feels like the arguments are always the same, nobody ever concedes a point, nobody changes their mind. But in retrospect, in my case, that's not really true - I've changed my position on several things (mostly political issues) because of discussions such as the ones we have here - and I looked at my beliefs, and discovered that some were held for irrational reasons I couldn't justify, or even rationalize without self-deception.

Yeah it's crazy what forums can do to you. It's like you're tapping into a wealth of knowledge that has been refined over decades through discussions. I've only been discussing on forums for 5-6 months now and I can confidently say that a) I'm a different person now than back then and b) I have learned how to think critically as opposed to accept word of mouth without question.

Before forums (when I was still a Christian) my argument for God was this:

1) Jesus was the Son of God
2) He said only through him we can go to heaven
3) Now, science can't disprove someone's existence therefore can never disprove God because Jesus was a person.
4) Therefore science can't touch God
5) Therefore, why would God want you to prove an infinite amount of facts before eventually answering the question 'is there a God' (if ever)? That's not what he wanted from you.

Needless to say, when I brought that up for the first time ever on the internet, I got beat down pretty badly. I honestly thought I had something that no one had ever thought of haha...

[Godscreated]

God did not create the universe for you, so how could that be deceitful.

Because he created it one way with a certain appearance but then says something different about it in the Bible.

Such as?

[FallentoReason]

Because he created it one way with a certain appearance but then says something different about it in the Bible.

Such as?

Like an old earth and old universe. Why do the ~40 different isotopes for measuring the age of the earth tell us it's much older than 6 000 years? Why does it seem like the light from stars have been travelling for millions, if not, billions of years to get to us?