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(June 16, 2012 at 5:37 pm)gringoperry Wrote: I have a question for christians regarding the quote in the title of this thread: Is it saying that we did not exist before God created a body for us?
What is being talked about here (Starting at verse 20 through 49) is the order in which the resurection takes place. what is being referenced in 46 and 47 are the references to the order of the spirit in verse 44 and the first and last Adam in 45.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown [l] a perishable body, it is raised [m] an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.(referenceing back to verse 44) 47 The first man is from the earth,(Verse 45 and the first Adam) [n] earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, [o]we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
Yeah but it's all made up, so who fucking cares how you interpret it?
You are currently experiencing a lucky and very brief window of awareness, sandwiched in between two periods of timeless and utter nothingness. So why not make the most of it, and stop wasting your life away trying to convince other people that there is something else? The reality is obvious.
(June 17, 2012 at 10:42 am)Tobie Wrote: What you posted was the claim. You have not supplied any evidence that this happens, much less proved it.
This "evidence" you say paul used is extremely dubious - for it to be admissible as evidence, it first has to be proved jesus existed, than that he resurrected and promised to resurrect the dead. Then, you'd have to show why these things mean that 1 Corinthians 15:42-49 is true. I doubt you'll get past the first of these premises.
How many times do we personally need to have this discussion?
Read the post by darwinian.
Maybe you should be clearer with your definition of proven. Clarify it by saying "proven within the context of my bullshit" or whatever.
Anyway, my point still stands what you posted is not evidence, it is the claim. Explain how paul used the resurrection of jesus etc. to prove what is said in 1 Corinthians:15:42-49 in the context of the bible.
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. - J.R.R Tolkien
Is Drich saying that JC is as historically existent as Sherlock Holmes? Because it certainly looks that way to me. If he is, we're finally singing from the same hymn sheet.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
1 Cor. 15:46-47 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the Spirit
June 17, 2012 at 1:17 pm (This post was last modified: June 17, 2012 at 1:20 pm by Gambit.)
(June 17, 2012 at 10:30 am)Drich Wrote:
(June 17, 2012 at 8:18 am)Darwinian Wrote: Ah, I see that you misunderstood Minimalist. What he actually asked for was evidence!
Glad to be of service
As 'he' did not specify to what evidence he was looking for, and as 'we' are speaking to the understanding or specific exegesis of a particular passage, then the request for said evidence would default to support the translation. Hence my comment to read the passage, for the evidence of the interpertation of the two verses in question were contained in the greater context of Paul's message.
Now to directly answer your query; Paul used the physical resurrection of Christ, and His promise to resurect the dead upon his second comming as proof.
(June 17, 2012 at 8:13 am)gringoperry Wrote: Thanks for your response, Drich. I understand that the line specifically refers to the resurrection, however, does the same apply in general? To elaborate, do we exist before God creates our body; and if so, in what state?
There is nothing in the bible that says we exist before this life. However their are some church traditions that say there is a well of souls in heaven, and when the well runs dry this will usher in the final days as per Revelation.
Okay, so assuming that we do not exist before this life; given that the bible does not discuss it, aren't we being created just to be condemned, all so we can prove our worthiness? A rough analogy would be inventing a product, putting it through all kinds of stress tests, before deciding if it makes the grade. If it does, it goes on the shop shelves. However, if it doesn't, it is simply cast off to the side.
So then, free will is thrust upon us after we have already been condemned for something that we never asked for. Don't you think that's a trifle unfair, considering we had no choice in the matter to begin with? What is the Christian view on this?
RE: 1 Cor. 15:46-47 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural
June 17, 2012 at 3:36 pm (This post was last modified: June 17, 2012 at 3:41 pm by Undeceived.)
(June 17, 2012 at 1:17 pm)gringoperry Wrote: Okay, so assuming that we do not exist before this life; given that the bible does not discuss it, aren't we being created just to be condemned, all so we can prove our worthiness? A rough analogy would be inventing a product, putting it through all kinds of stress tests, before deciding if it makes the grade. If it does, it goes on the shop shelves. However, if it doesn't, it is simply cast off to the side.
So then, free will is thrust upon us after we have already been condemned for something that we never asked for. Don't you think that's a trifle unfair, considering we had no choice in the matter to begin with? What is the Christian view on this?
The general purpose of life is to love God and love our neighbor. According to the Bible, we are not here to "do" or "prove" anything, but to exist in relationship with God. We also have the free will to reject the relationship (either actively or by saying it doesn't exist). God knew we could never remain sinless, so life is not a test. The only way we are saved is through God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-10). Once our sins are paid for in Jesus' death and resurrection, we might choose to respond with good works (Titus 2:11-12) out of thanks. Ultimately, our goal on earth should continue into heaven. If deeds alone were our goal, the heart would mean nothing and heaven would just be a place. As it is, we seek communion with God, a Divine Romance. A spiritual interaction which words cannot describe.
In answer to free will, read Romans ch.9. It is true we never asked for the ability to sin, but life is full of things we never ask for. Fairness is not checking everyone's wishes, hopes and desires before acting, but rather judging according to the heart. As Romans 9:20 says, "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?" I, for one, am glad for the opportunity God has given me, and it could be that everyone is, subconsciously. If we had no free will we might as well not exist. And it is a heavy claim to wish you never existed. The only case in which you feel free will has been unfairly "thrust" upon you is when you're not sure about your standing with God. If you believe He is there, you like having chose Him. If you do not believe He is there, why do you care about circumstances that do not exist? In other words, Christian believers view free will as fair, and nonbelievers, who don't believe in free will at all, deem it unfair as extra grounds for rejecting the notion of God. God does not condemn us, we condemn ourselves. A sinful heart must be judged (Romans 3:23, 6:23). But the remedy is a phone call to God away. Ask for mercy and ye shall receive it.
Waiter, there's too much preaching with this salad.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
Cor. 15:46-47 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the Spirit
June 17, 2012 at 4:50 pm (This post was last modified: June 17, 2012 at 4:54 pm by Drich.)
(June 17, 2012 at 1:17 pm)gringoperry Wrote: Okay, so assuming that we do not exist before this life; given that the bible does not discuss it, aren't we being created just to be condemned, all so we can prove our worthiness? A rough analogy would be inventing a product, putting it through all kinds of stress tests, before deciding if it makes the grade. If it does, it goes on the shop shelves. However, if it doesn't, it is simply cast off to the side.
I like old cars so i will use this analogy. No car is built to last forever, however some cars are loved by their owners to the point they are willing to do whatever it takes to continually renew them, allowing them to remain new for the life of their owners. In this model the owners get to decide which cars they love and which ones are restored. enter 'Free will' and now the 'cars' are deciding which of them are 'renewed' for the life of their owner.
The process of renewal/restoration in christianity is known as attonement, this attonement is offered to everyone, but is only given to those who accept it.
Quote:So then, free will is thrust upon us after we have already been condemned for something that we never asked for. Don't you think that's a trifle unfair, considering we had no choice in the matter to begin with?
To be honest we do not know, or simply do not remember what happened before we were born. The bible is silent. Silent does not mean any more that something did not happen, as silence means that it did. We simply do not know. So what do we know? we know we have a choice, and that means we will all be expected to choose, and will be held to our choice.
Quote: What is the Christian view on this?
To choose and let others know of this choice.
To judge what is fair or unfair without a complete picture is.. Persumptious at best.
(June 17, 2012 at 12:03 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Is Drich saying that JC is as historically existent as Sherlock Holmes? Because it certainly looks that way to me. If he is, we're finally singing from the same hymn sheet.
What I am saying and have said in 30 different ways, is if you are going to have a coontextual arguement then you will have to accept the context being discussed. If you can not then know you have excused yourself from the arguement. We are discussing context here nothing else.
I'm making no argument. Just enjoying the funny clowns from a ringside seat.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
