Why do christians needlessly risk their immortal souls?

[GhostofZeus]

This question is for true believers out there. I'm always curious as to how people function in this world if they are believers in heaven and hell and an eternal soul. Specifically, if you truly believe in a god that is the ultimate arbiter of your entrance into heaven and hell, then the only logical course for your life would be to devise the route that will provide the highest probability of avoiding hell. That is, since this material life is finite and heaven and hell are for eternity, then this life has no importance other than as a vehicle to avoid hell and get into heaven. That should make things very simple as to how to purport your life: try and learn what the god's criteria for getting to heaven and then dedicate yourself 100% to meeting those criteria. Assuming the bible is that rule book, a very big assumption, then the only logical course is to understand the bible and follow its' teachings. It seems others have come to this conclusion too; they become monks, go to an isolated monastery, take vows of silence, study scripture and avoid contact with the 'outside' world. Why they remain living I do not know, as an early death, not suicide of course, would dramatically increase the probability of avoiding sin. The point is, only a miniscule minority of self proclaimed christians actually follow the monastery route; what are the others thinking? It is outrageously foolish for a christian to risk her soul by going to school, getting a career, making money, building relationships etc...? My only conclusion, thus far, is that the vast majority of christians only profess belief but don't actually believe in heaven and hell, and/or they haven't bothered to learn scripture?

[Drich]

This question is for true believers out there. I'm always curious as to how people function in this world if they are believers in heaven and hell and an eternal soul. Specifically, if you truly believe in a god that is the ultimate arbiter of your entrance into heaven and hell, then the only logical course for your life would be to devise the route that will provide the highest probability of avoiding hell.

That would be a problem as the bible tells us there is noting We can do to avoid Hell.

That is, since this material life is finite and heaven and hell are for eternity, then this life has no importance other than as a vehicle to avoid hell and get into heaven. That should make things very simple as to how to purport your life: try and learn what the god's criteria for getting to heaven and then dedicate yourself 100% to meeting those criteria. Assuming the bible is that rule book, a very big assumption, then the only logical course is to understand the bible and follow its' teachings.

How is it that you believe people outside of monestaries have not done this?

It seems others have come to this conclusion too; they become monks, go to an isolated monastery, take vows of silence, study scripture and avoid contact with the 'outside' world.

Monestaries are not perscribed in the bible as a way to do anything except to perfect a very specific brand of religion. (Man's efforts to worship connect to God) The bible, more over Christ himself shows that He is not a fan of the practice of worshiping a religion, or specific brand of worship.

Why they remain living I do not know, as an early death, not suicide of course, would dramatically increase the probability of avoiding sin.

Avoiding sin is not the Goal of a biblically based Christianity, for all sin has been attoned for, and the believer can stand before God as if he were sinless. The Goal of biblically based Christianity is to Love God with all of your Heart, Mind, Spirit and Strength. We do this not be being sinnless (Which according to Christ and Paul is a fruitless effort) but by keeping his commands (not commandments) "Go out into the world and spread the Gospel." How many monks can do this from their monestary's door step?

The point is, only a miniscule minority of self proclaimed christians actually follow the monastery route; what are the others thinking?

That monestaries are not the recomended route to heaven, as we are told not to isolate ourselves from the world who need us. We are to be very much apart of it, just not "of it."

It is outrageously foolish for a christian to risk her soul by going to school, getting a career, making money, building relationships etc...?

What seems to be even more foolish is to make blind assumptions of a religion you seem to know little to nothing about.

My only conclusion, thus far, is that the vast majority of christians only profess belief but don't actually believe in heaven and hell, and/or they haven't bothered to learn scripture?

Since you brought it up do you have said scripture that backs up the need to live in a monestary?

Then why hold anyone to a standard in which you can not produce yourself? Has hyprocrisy outside of the church become an accepted practice now?

[GhostofZeus]

"That would be a problem as the bible tells us there is noting We can do to avoid Hell." >> Can you provide a reference to this.


"How is it that you believe people outside of monestaries have not done this?" >> How can one be devoted to god and "Love God with all of your Heart, Mind, Spirit and Strength," and "take therefore no thought for the morrow" if you're working 8-14 hours a day to get money to buy things to make life comfortable?


"The bible, more over Christ himself shows that He is not a fan of the practice of worshiping a religion, or specific brand of worship." I'm not sure what you mean by this statement." >> Can you provide a biblical quote.


"Avoiding sin is not the Goal of a biblically based Christianity, for all sin has been attoned for, and the believer can stand before God as if he were sinless. The Goal of biblically based Christianity is to Love God with all of your Heart, Mind, Spirit and Strength. We do this not be being sinnless (Which according to Christ and Paul is a fruitless effort) but by keeping his commands (not commandments) "Go out into the world and spread the Gospel." How many monks can do this from their monestary's door step?" >> You're claiming that it is okay to sin? Ignore sin but promote the gospel is the best route to heaven? So do you, and your fellow christians spend 20 hour days proselytizing?


"That monestaries are not the recomended route to heaven, as we are told not to isolate ourselves from the world who need us. We are to be very much apart of it, just not "of it."" >> Can you provide reference for this.


"What seems to be even more foolish is to make blind assumptions of a religion you seem to know little to nothing about." >> Not very chrisitian of you. Your hate is, I'm pretty sure, a sin. Making people, me for example, dislike christians and, therefore, never know god's grace is probably going to get you into hell.


"Since you brought it up do you have said scripture that backs up the need to live in a monestary?" >> You miss the point. I am interested in determining the route that has the highest probability of reaching heaven. Going to a monastery was just an example.


"Then why hold anyone to a standard in which you can not produce yourself? Has hyprocrisy outside of the church become an accepted practice now?" >> I'm not holding anyone to any standard. I am simply asking a religious question on a forum for asking religious questions.

[Drich]

Can you provide a reference to this.

I would be more than happy to post references to everything I say,(including:"there is noting We can do to avoid Hell") but the mods here frown upon me doing so unless someone directly asks for them soo..
Romans 3:All People Are Guilty

9 So are we Jews better than other people? No, we have already said that those who are Jews, as well as those who are not Jews, are the same. They are all guilty of sin. 10 As the Scriptures say,


“There is no one doing what is right,
not even one.
11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who is trying to be with God.
12 They have all turned away from him,
and now they are of no use to anyone.
There is no one who does good,
not even one.”


13 “Their words come from mouths that are like open graves.
They use their lying tongues to deceive others.”


“Their words are like the poison of snakes.”


14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and angry words.”


15 “They are always ready to kill someone.
16 Everywhere they go they cause trouble and ruin.
17 They don’t know how to live in peace.”


18 “They have no fear or respect for God.”

19 What the law says is for those who are under the law. It stops anyone from making excuses. And it brings the whole world under God’s judgment, 20 because no one can be made right with God by following the law. The law only shows us our sin.

Paul is making a very clear statement here in that ALL people (Even Popes, Prophets, Emmesaries and even "Super Apstoles" Himself and the other 11/12 are included in this number.) Are viewed as a being hopeless sinners who's best works are meaningless (Dirty/mentral rags in another passage) If the super apstoles and the Great religious leaders can not do anything to earn salvation then none of us can. That make Salvation not something earned, but a gift so no man can boast.

How can one be devoted to god and "Love God with all of your Heart, Mind, Spirit and Strength," and "take therefore no thought for the morrow" if you're working 8-14 hours a day to get money to buy things to make life comfortable?

If the sole purpose for work is to buy yourself things then know you can not do this. But also know not everyone who works 8-16 hours aday is working for themselves. A single mom who works to provide for her children is a living testament to the love God commands us to have for one another. This expression of love is 1000 greater than what a monk can express who hides himself away in a monestary.

"The bible, more over Christ himself shows that He is not a fan of the practice of worshiping a religion, or specific brand of worship." I'm not sure what you mean by this statement." >> Can you provide a biblical quote.

The condemation of the worship of religion did not happen in one single verse but through out the entire ministry of Jesus. I will focous my efforts on Mat 23 known as the seven woes to the pharasees and makers of the law and will leave links to 2 pages of other instances where Jesus condemed the worship of religious activities by the 'church' leaders of his day.
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/inde...tnumber=76
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/inde...tnumber=51

Mat 23:http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=NIV

Christ comes down hard on the religious leaders of his day. Most appologestic say this was the reason for his death. Because these men and their interpertation of the law/scripture was uncontested. Primarily because none else had access to the holy scrolls so these men would take and 'interperete' the will of God and create new laws. laws that would benfit them, and their beliefs. These new laws (or "Doctrine" is the christian equilivent) Combined with traditional authority given to the religious leaders in the Christian community for denominations or various religious expressions. For the Jews it was much less diverse. The two primary religious views of Judaism were what the Pharasees taught and believed and what the Saducees taught and believed. Christ spent the majority of his time speaking out against thier worship of their religious distinctions.

"Avoiding sin is not the Goal of a biblically based Christianity, for all sin has been attoned for, and the believer can stand before God as if he were sinless. The Goal of biblically based Christianity is to Love God with all of your Heart, Mind, Spirit and Strength. We do this not be being sinnless (Which according to Christ and Paul is a fruitless effort) but by keeping his commands (not commandments) "Go out into the world and spread the Gospel." How many monks can do this from their monestary's door step?" >> You're claiming that it is okay to sin?

I am saying, or Rather Paul says, we can not live a sin free life. That our salvation is not pinned on whether or not we have stopped sinning, after we accept Christ. Paul tells us we are always sinning even if we do not know it. And Christ in Mt 5 ensured no one could live a life with out sin when he "Completed the Law"
That means, sin/The law can not be the measure in which righteousness is given. That also means "Righteousness is not earn but a gift, so no man can boast."

Ignore sin but promote the gospel is the best route to heaven? So do you, and your fellow christians spend 20 hour days proselytizing?

Proselytizing has nothing to do with spreading the gospel.

"That monestaries are not the recomended route to heaven, as we are told not to isolate ourselves from the world who need us. We are to be very much apart of it, just not "of it."" >> Can you provide reference for this.

This part tells us to go out into the world and not hide from it Mt28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

This part tells you to be apart of the world and not of this world:
1cor7:30 It should not be important whether you are sad or whether you are happy. If you buy something, it should not matter to you that you own it. 31 You should use the things of the world without letting them become important to you. This is how you should live, because this world, the way it is now, will soon be gone.

Paul is saying we should be apart of this world we should interact with this world by buying and using what this world has to offer but we should not hold dear or rather be of this world, meaning we place our heart/treasure to the material possions we have or look to obtain.

Have you heard the term when in Rome, do as the Romans do? It was coined from Pauls work in 1cor9:19 I am free. I belong to no other person, but I make myself a slave to everyone. I do this to help save as many people as I can. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew so that I could help save Jews. I myself am not ruled by the law, but to those who are ruled by the law I became like someone who is ruled by the law. I did this to help save those who are ruled by the law. 21 To those who are without the law I became like someone who is without the law. I did this to help save those who are without the law. (But really, I am not without God’s law—I am ruled by the law of Christ.) 22 To those who are weak, I became weak so that I could help save them. I have become all things to all people. I did this so that I could save people in any way possible. 23 I do all this to make the Good News known. I do it so that I can share in the blessings of the Good News.

We are to be apart of this world interacting with it and in the middle of it, Just not apart of it, and certainatly not held up in a sanctuary looking down on it.

"What seems to be even more foolish is to make blind assumptions of a religion you seem to know little to nothing about." >> Not very chrisitian of you.

How so? I simply identified a crippling defiency in your understanding of Basic christianity that has completely scewed you perception of it. It is not my fault you have taken offense to this nessary step in this effort to reeducate you in biblical Christianity.

Your hate

Has been greatly over exagerated. Hate does not take the time to frame answers in an easy to understand way, or pointout fatal flaws in your logic and then help you build a proper persepective.

is, I'm pretty sure, a sin. Making people, me for example, dislike christians and, therefore, never know god's grace is probably going to get you into hell.

Your 'dislike was appearent in your opening post, and yet I have still given you at least an hour of my time to help change your critically flawed understanding of basic christianity.

"Since you brought it up do you have said scripture that backs up the need to live in a monestary?" >> You miss the point. I am interested in determining the route that has the highest probability of reaching heaven. Going to a monastery was just an example.


"Then why hold anyone to a standard in which you can not produce yourself? Has hyprocrisy outside of the church become an accepted practice now?" >> I'm not holding anyone to any standard. I am simply asking a religious question on a forum for asking religious questions.

Which you understood to be living in a monestary, subsequently challenging anyone claiming christianity to 'prove' or defend a life lived outside of confinement as a monk.

To which I asked what proof do you have that living in a monestary is the best/most probable way to heaven?

Remember you did not simply ask is living in a monestary the best way to heaven. you asserted that is was, and not only that you demanded a reckoning for all who did not live the life of a monk. In order to make such an assertion you must have some 'proof' of the same nature that you have required from us, for not living as a monk. Otherwise know you have been rightly and not maliciously identified as a hypocrite. Not a big deal unless you pride will not allow this point to pass.

[GhostofZeus]

"Paul is making a very clear statement"

a) No, it is not clear
b) That is your interpretation of Paul's statement

Well, I appreciate your time, but this has been unhelpful. I knew that it is impossible to be free of sin, but your view that there is no need to avoid sin to get into heaven is intriguing. The corollary of that is you can lead a sinful, immoral life and not worry about your immortal soul. Your interpretation seems to contradict what I've heard from every christian: avoid sin, follow christian morality. Why preach against homosexuality or pre-marital sex or any sin for that matter. I will make another post to focus on this one issue: do we need to avoid sin.

[Drich]

[quote='GhostofZeus' pid='300606' dateline='1339970160']
[quote]Well, I appreciate your time, but this has been unhelpful. I knew that it is impossible to be free of sin, but your view that there is no need to avoid sin to get into heaven is intriguing.[/quote] Read the book of Roman. you will fin that this concept is not unique to me.

Romans 7 condenses this concept into a few passages


14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good. 17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

[quote] The corollary of that is you can lead a sinful, immoral life and not worry about your immortal soul.[/quote]That is not what was said. I said trying to earn your way to heaven by behivor is a pointless. Because the bible demonstrates that we Can not be good enough so we must seek an alternitive to trying to earn our way to heaven.

[quote] Your interpretation seems to contradict what I've heard from every christian: avoid sin, follow christian morality. Why preach against homosexuality or pre-marital sex or any sin for that matter. I will make another post to focus on this one issue: do we need to avoid sin.[/quote]
The behavior is meaningless in of itself. we must know why we do what we do.

[Godscreated]

Assuming the bible is that rule book, a very big assumption, then the only logical course is to understand the bible and follow its' teachings. It seems others have come to this conclusion too; they become monks, go to an isolated monastery, take vows of silence, study scripture and avoid contact with the 'outside' world. Why they remain living I do not know, as an early death, not suicide of course, would dramatically increase the probability of avoiding sin. The point is, only a miniscule minority of self proclaimed christians actually follow the monastery route; what are the others thinking? It is outrageously foolish for a christian to risk her soul by going to school, getting a career, making money, building relationships etc...? My only conclusion, thus far, is that the vast majority of christians only profess belief but don't actually believe in heaven and hell, and/or they haven't bothered to learn scripture?

You took a long route to get to you questions, I eliminated most of it, so as not to take up forum space unnecessarily.
A question for you, why ask these questions when it's apparent you have no idea what scriptures have to say? Do you even have a Bible and if so have you ever read it, if not then how is it you believe you can make statements about the way Christians should live their lives. Word of mouth from atheist is here say, and can not be taken as fact.
God has made it simple to come into salvation, all that is required is this accept the love of God through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. God made salvation this easy so all could come unto Him, the simple, down trodden, the poor, murderers, sexually immoral, rich, well educated and ect. No one is beyond salvation, no one has to work for it, believe and accept, can not be simpler really.
Monks or anyone else that keep to themselves are selfish and weak, more than likely they are trying to earn their way into heaven, want work, trying to earn salvation is actually against the plan of God, it is a religious practice, one that might hold one back from salvation.
As far as exposing ones self to the world as a Christian is a command from Christ, Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. If Christ had intended for us to hide ourselves away, He would not have given this command. He actually said this, Matthew 28:20 "teaching them to observe all I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
God also said in Genesis, "six days shall a man work and on the seventh he shall rest and keep it holy." God from the beginning never intended for us to bury our heads in the sand.