A person on another forum was mean to me!

[Brian37]

I applaud the father for removing this vile "person" from existence. I believe that if you rape and torture a child you forfeit your life. I would have done the same.

AGAIN, the reaction was UNDERSTANDABLE,

I am not talking about this guy or one single case about any given crime.

I am talking about LONG TERM "REVENGE" mentality over ANY CRIME.

What if the dad did not witness it and had merely took someone's word for it and went and murderd an innocent person?

You do know that there are gullible people who have beaten up or murdered someone because another person manipulated that person into believing the lie that they were a victim. It happens all the time. Innocent people can be physically harmed over a lie.

My co-worker had a former co-worker steal his ID. Because of that LIE my current co-worker had to deal with the arrest mess and phoney ID of the other guy. THE POINT IS PEOPLE CAN AND DO LIE.

"Street justice" is a bad mentality.

What if a kid gets a bad grade in school or simply doesn't like a teacher and that teacher hasn't done anything wrong? What is to stop that kid from making a horrible claim? If we set up society to believe without evidence you can and will get someone put in jail based on a lie.

Now back to this guy. I am sure there was an investigation, and a polygraph and the dead guy might have had priors the father didn't know about. BUT this should be the exception, not the rule.

Please stop missing the point. It is a bad idea to create a climate of fear in a population because if it is not balanced by presumption of innocence, LONG TERM, you end up with a police state,.

Until anyone reading this gets falsely accused of a serious crime, please do not talk to me about "justice". "Revenge" is not justice and emotions are a horrible way to run a system of law.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT ONE PERSON OR ONE CRIME.

[Zen Badger]

I agree with Brian on this, whilst the man's reaction is understandable( speaking as a father of five girls).

You can't have people exacting revenge ad hoc.

Otherwise we would be like Pakistan and Afganistan etc where the tribal elders will have someone executed on the slimmest evidence for the flimsiest of excuses.

And how many times have we here condemned the perpetrators of those crimes.

[Napoléon]

Where are you guys pulling this "didn't deserve to die" bullshit from? o__0

He. Raped. A. Five. Year. Old. Girl.

Please stop abusing your common sense by devaluing life to raise up murderers and rapists to our level. Geez.

Straw man.

No one here is saying this vile motherfucker didn't deserve to die. What I think we are trying to help you understand is that it is not justifiable for any reason to kill another human being.

Now you may disagree, but thankfully the justice system in my country at least doesn't.


For the record, I'd have probably done the exact same thing as the guy in this story.

But justifying murder, is in my opinion no way a moral high ground, which you seem to be trying to sit on.

[Tempus]

This is relevant, I think:

Not to me,in THIS case,based on the limited information I have.

That's why I brought it up. I don't know anything besides the two or three articles I've read, including the one linked to in the OP. I don't have access to psych evaluations or brain scans of the perpetrator. There's not really that much information in the articles I've read and most of them focus on the victim's family. Here's everything I know about perpetrator: Jesus Mora Flores, 47, was not born in the U.S. but was there legally with a green card, hired by the family to help with horses on the ranch, witnessed "forcibly carrying" the girl into a secluded area, emergency crews found his pants and underwear pulled down when they arrived. That's everything I've found; it's hardly enough to dismiss something like a brain tumour, however rare that chance may be.

Where are you guys pulling this "didn't deserve to die" bullshit from? o__0

He. Raped. A. Five. Year. Old. Girl.

We're already aware of what he did. Punishments are graded according to the crime and circumstances. If rape were punishable by death what incentive would rapists have to not murder their victims or witnesses? They're already going to be killed if they're caught. It's the same reason we punish people differently for stealing a car vs. stealing the Mona Lisa. Incidents of rape can also be graded, typically being viewed as increasingly worse the younger (or more vulnerable) the victim is. Rape and abuse in general has adverse psychological effects on a person, particularly during their formative years. Nonetheless, murder is usually punished harsher because it's recognised as a more severe crime. You can't go to therapy for your own death. You can't confront your murderer and get an apology. If you have dependant children you can't continue caring for them. It's permanent.

Please stop abusing your common sense by devaluing life to raise up murderers and rapists to our level. Geez.

The problem with common sense is that it's just an appeal to majority opinion. Sometimes it's right, sometimes it's not. A lot of common sense is just plain nonsense.

[Welsh cake]

No one here is saying this vile motherfucker didn't deserve to die. What I think we are trying to help you understand is that it is not justifiable for any reason to kill another human being.

Beg pardon. People are saying whether or not its justified here. I'm reading from the BBC website and should have been specific as to whom I was referring to.


On a side note - Who else is fucking sick and tired of 'straw man' being invoked? Or people calling "straw man!" because one or more parties were being vague? I know I am.

If rape were punishable by death what incentive would rapists have to not murder their victims or witnesses?

Most of them already do.

[Shell B]

Your knee-jerk reaction should not be your primary one. Yes, the man did something horrible, but that's why we have a court system.

In self defense or in defense of someone you love, knee-jerk reactions are the only reactions you have the luxury of having. Personally, I find the idea of stopping to think about it before acting because of some misplaced sense of justice to be a little sickening as well. If I were in a situation with a loved one and we walked in on what that man walked in on and said loved one paused to think over what the best course of action would be, allowing the child to continue being raped, my first course of action would be to stop the rape, my second to console the child and my third to bitch slap the idiot who has put so much stock into the ideals of justice and human behavior.

There is a reason why we are allowed to defend ourselves to the point of "murder." The justice system doesn't sit in every room and on every street protecting us from psychopaths. That man's knee jerk reaction saved his daughter, though the end result was not what he wanted. The end result was traumatic for him, but his daughter was protected nonetheless.

---

But justifying murder, is in my opinion no way a moral high ground, which you seem to be trying to sit on.

No one is justifying a murder. The man did not commit murder. Killing someone accidentally without any other mitigating factor that would make you responsible despite lack of intent is not murder. The man did nothing wrong.

[Tempus]

If rape were punishable by death what incentive would rapists have to not murder their victims or witnesses?

Most of them already do.

Do they? I'd be interested in seeing something to back that up. I did a short search and couldn't find anything but second-hand statistics:

Although many women express strong fear about being murdered by a rapist, in fact only one in 10,000 rapists kill their victims. Sexual predators exploit fear of being killed as a strategy designed to successfully carry out a rape. (http://www.utexas.edu/features/2005/murder/index.html)

[One myth about rape is that] most rapists kill their victim. One percent or less of all rapes end in murder. (http://www.semo.edu/dps/sexual_assault.htm)

I reckon the figures mentioned probably only apply to the US, so it may differ elsewhere. Neither of the above cite their sources, unfortunately. Being universities you'd think they would. Again, I don't see any reason to believe that most rapists kill their victims. At least 50% of rapes would need to end in murder for that to be true. If the above statistics are any indication that's way off.

[Annik]

Your knee-jerk reaction should not be your primary one. Yes, the man did something horrible, but that's why we have a court system.

In self defense or in defense of someone you love, knee-jerk reactions are the only reactions you have the luxury of having. Personally, I find the idea of stopping to think about it before acting because of some misplaced sense of justice to be a little sickening as well. If I were in a situation with a loved one and we walked in on what that man walked in on and said loved one paused to think over what the best course of action would be, allowing the child to continue being raped, my first course of action would be to stop the rape, my second to console the child and my third to bitch slap the idiot who has put so much stock into the ideals of justice and human behavior.

There is a reason why we are allowed to defend ourselves to the point of "murder." The justice system doesn't sit in every room and on every street protecting us from psychopaths. That man's knee jerk reaction saved his daughter, though the end result was not what he wanted. The end result was traumatic for him, but his daughter was protected nonetheless.

That isn't the knee-jerk reaction I was talking about (it's more directed at those who are praising that a man was beaten to death), but if you want to get into that...
A child was raped, yes. In response, the father beat a man to death, which it seems like it was not his intention to do. As mentioned in this thread previously, the father will now have to live with the fact he killed someone. It might be easy for us to reason away, but we didn't pound someone to death with our fists. The daughter will grow up, knowing her father ended another life. Finally, there is the deceased, who we don't have the right to execute on the street.

There is more than the initial anger that comes with knowing that kind of stuff. I know that the father called an ambulance, the police, anyone and everyone to save the man's live. He didn't want the man who raped his daughter to die. You might want to think about that before you get so gleeful over a man's murder. I'm not saying the father should be charged or anything like that, but there should not have been a death that night.

Not one has sovereign over your life but you. Only you can decide to take your own life and (short of accidents) no one has the right to take it from you. This is regardless of the choices that person made. No one has the right to take another's life. Period.

I think you're getting my views mixed up with idealistic faith in the justice system. The justice system does fail us, however, that do not give one the right to carry out whatever justice they see fit. These are my beliefs and they only concern one's right to live and the "right" to take away life (which we have no claim to). It's a separate issue from human behavior or the justice system.

The father didn't do the "right" thing. He didn't want his daughter's rapist to die. Why is everyone so happy he did?

Furthermore, today was the I realized I can stick to my guns.

EDIT: I just want to add that I'm not saying one should sit there and allow their child to be harmed, but this is about the waste of the life.

[Shell B]

The daughter will grow up, knowing her father ended another life. Finally, there is the deceased, who we don't have the right to execute on the street.

She is five years old and her identity is being hidden from the public. Chances are, she will have no idea if no one says anything to her about it.

You might want to think about that before you get so gleeful over a man's murder.

Holy shit. Are you serious? Link the part of my post where I seemed even remotely gleeful about a girl getting raped and a guy dying (not being murdered). Fucking gleeful. I like you, Annik, but I never, ever stand for someone misrepresenting my position in order to further emotionalize their own for effect.

I'm not saying the father should be charged or anything like that, but there should not have been a death that night.

I can agree with that. However, there was only a death, not a murder.

Not one has sovereign over your life but you. Only you can decide to take your own life and (short of accidents) no one has the right to take it from you. This is regardless of the choices that person made. No one has the right to take another's life. Period.

According to the law, plenty of people have a right to take another's life. You are taking an extremist position that does not allow for countless scenarios. If a man comes into my house and threatens the life of everyone in it and my only recourse in stopping him is killing, I fucking sure as hell do have a right to take his life and the law will agree with me. Whether extremist types agree is irrelevant. The law, the only thing that gives us rights and takes them away, agrees.

The father didn't do the "right" thing. He didn't want his daughter's rapist to die. Why is everyone so happy he did?

I don't know who is "happy." However, the man did do the right thing. He protected his daughter. He didn't intend to kill the man, so I don't count that as part of his actions, but rather an unfortunate result. Fortunately, randoms on the internet don't get to choose whether what he did was right for him. I'm sure he is not thrilled with the outcome, but given the option again would do the same thing. That was his fucking daughter.

[Brian37]

I agree with Brian on this, whilst the man's reaction is understandable( speaking as a father of five girls).

You can't have people exacting revenge ad hoc.

Otherwise we would be like Pakistan and Afganistan etc where the tribal elders will have someone executed on the slimmest evidence for the flimsiest of excuses.

And how many times have we here condemned the perpetrators of those crimes.

Thank you. Everyone including people like me who don't have kids. But any sane person understands WHY the father did it. But again, this should be the exception, not the norm.

Having had an entire private school hate me and accuse me of throwing a rock at a car, which I did not do, and having them all, staff included, hate me because I didn't confess to it, which ended a playground day only an hour into it, it sucks when no one believes you. The truth was that the tire kicked up the rock, it was not thrown. The driver assumed I had thrown it.

All it takes is an assumption or an out right lie, even not involving a crime, presuming guilt can get innocent people hurt.