Shia - Sunni issue.

[KichigaiNeko]

Neither view is worth getting excited about..both are stupid.

[Angrboda]

So in that worldview, I would say, yes, it matters.

I can't see where blowing up a market and killing 50 people solves much of anything.

Let's face it. These fuckers simply hate each other for the stupidest of reasons and it isn't something that can be undone.

And, liberals endorse the wholesale killing of innocent people ([1] and [2]). How you frame the question, and how you interpret things, matters critically in determining what conclusions are reached. Simply retorting that "my conclusions are correct," or that "yours are unjustified," or simply "you're crazy," doesn't actually meet the question. That you find the consequences undesirable or unjustified — to you — again doesn't meet the question. Sam Harris made the same mistake in The Moral Landscape in arguing that what constituted the good — to him — was in fact identical with the good, that the two are one and the same. Not only is this mere bare assertion and ipse dixit, it is also an example of a form of thinking which you would not accept as valid if used by someone whose views you disagreed with.

If you don't justify your beliefs, I fail to see the difference between you and them.

Your answer, as best I can make out, is no answer. And possibly worse than.


[1] Referring of course to legalized abortion.

[2] We also regularly confine people to small, unpleasant and cramped condition, and deprive them of material pleasures and freedoms that we generally take for granted; and we even occasionally kill them. We feel this is justified by our theories of justice. All the same, we are treating a large population, especially in the U.S., horribly and brutally. If our theory of justice is wrong, our treatment of them is wrong. If our theory of justice is "mostly right" then that means it is "partly wrong," and that, therefore, part of that population which is being horrendously treated is being harmed unjustifiably.

[Minimalist]

[1] If a woman does not want to have a child who the fuck am I to tell her she has to have it? It's no skin off my nose, either way.

[2] You'll get no defense of the so-called American Criminal Justice system from me.

[apostopare]

This is what make me think that religion and god is nonsense. You have to keep adding rules, people keep changing rules and then people with different opinions form their own group, creating new sects, new prophets, new books etc. I'm sure the koran doesn't tell you to follow sunni, shiite, sufism, ahmadiyya, etc etc.... the god and its koran is incapable to control human beings to live in an orderly manner. How can the most perfect god let his human beings out of control? How can god and the koran cause so many killings or massacres?

To all stupid jihadists and war mongerings, take care of this lovely earth we all live in. Spend some time to take care of your environment, to love and care your own people. Feed those poor starving buggers instead of blowing each other up.

[Thor]

I recently watched an episode of "Locked Up Abroad" which told the tale of a couple of journalists who were kidnapped and held for ransom by Muslim thugs in Somalia. At one point, the two journalists managed to escape and ran to a nearby mosque looking for help. The imam at the mosque said, "If you are Muslim we will protect you."

And right there I could plainly see the problem with their religion. Why the hell does someone in need have to belong to your religion before you'll help them? How about helping me because I'm a human being? If this imam came running up to me begging for help I wouldn't say, "If you're an atheist, I'll help you." But then, I suppose that's the difference between Muslim fanatics and the rest of the world.

[apostopare]

I recently watched an episode of "Locked Up Abroad" which told the tale of a couple of journalists who were kidnapped and held for ransom by Muslim thugs in Somalia. At one point, the two journalists managed to escape and ran to a nearby mosque looking for help. The imam at the mosque said, "If you are Muslim we will protect you."

And right there I could plainly see the problem with their religion. Why the hell does someone in need have to belong to your religion before you'll help them? How about helping me because I'm a human being? If this imam came running up to me begging for help I wouldn't say, "If you're an atheist, I'll help you." But then, I suppose that's the difference between Muslim fanatics and the rest of the world.

Exactly what I think.

And, anybody could come to that imam and says that they are moslems and that they acknowledge allah is god and mohammed is their prophet while they don't tell the imam that they are corrupt government officials and yet the imam would protect these people. The imam doesn't give the camel's dung if the people that come to him actually feed millions of hungry africans or cure millions of sick africans.. as long as they are not moslem the imam thinks they can get stuffed.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

The Sunni/ Shia division is important to a great many Muslims. I don't know enough to make an intelligent or helpful comment about the issue. That's Ok; from reading the comments,neither does anyone else.

[Thor]

And, anybody could come to that imam and says that they are moslems and that they acknowledge allah is god and mohammed is their prophet while they don't tell the imam that they are corrupt government officials and yet the imam would protect these people. The imam doesn't give the camel's dung if the people that come to him actually feed millions of hungry africans or cure millions of sick africans.. as long as they are not moslem the imam thinks they can get stuffed.

Exactly! This kind of thinking concerns itself more with "what do you believe?" rather than "who are you and what have you done?". I find it quite sickening. Can you imagine coming upon a car accident and someone who is bleeding badly asks for help, and you say, "I'll help you if you're an atheist"?

[kılıç_mehmet]

Honestly, this issue, it was something I was obsessed with.

I honestly believe that there is good arguments on both sides.

The Good arguments on Sunni Side is the following:

1) No super ultra clear mention of Imamate of Ali, Hassan and Hussain in Quran or the 12 Imams.
2) Praise of majority of companions in Quran, general praise they will be going to paradise, goes against them almost all turning on their backs after the Prophet.
3) Ali not going to war with Abu Baker and Umar and settling for bad rulers...that were imposed by a few over the rest.
4) Lack of knock out proof in either Quran or Mutuwatir hadiths.

The Good arguments for Shiism:

1) The wage verses, 42:23 combined with 25:57, make it as if the Al-Qurba are the path to God. al-Qurba then obviously means a family of exlated chosen ones.
2) Leaving Two weighty things - Quran and his family, if they hold on to, they will not be misguided, and then in this context states whomever he is Mawla of, then so is Ali. The context is guidance, so Authority makes more sense to mean Mawla. And family is said never to separate from Quran, therefore seem to be sinless (don't disobey God).
3) Hadiths there will be Successors, while only a person inheriting the Guidance position and authority of a Prophet can be a true successor, not just a secular ruler.
4) "We then inherited the book to those whom we chosen of our servants..." in Suratal Fatir.

It seems to me Quran and hadiths give both the impression of Shiism to some, and to others, it gives the impression of Sunnism.

Has anyone here studied the Shia - Sunni dispute and seen arguments on both sides?

Whom do you feel has the better rationalization assuming Islam is true?

Well, I believe that the greatest clashes between sunni and shia is based on the followings:
The slaying of Uthman by a rebel faction within the moslems, and the disputes regarding succession.
The slaying of Ali by another rebel faction within the moslems, and the disputes regarding succession.
The slaying of Ali's children by Muawiyah, and the appointment of his son Yazid as his heir.
And any other Caliph, which has based it's legitimacy from then on, has not been accepted by the Shia moslems as rightful successor, and whatever rulings he had decreed were declared to be unlawful by the shia side.

Indeed, the Shias also refuse to pray in the mosques of the Sunnis, whom they claim to be the very same mosques in which Fatwas regarding Muawiyah's legitimate succession were given to worshippers.
The thing is, the Shia claim that by hadith, that twelve people will succeed Muhammed as legitimate and righteous caliphs.
Until now, there are 11 recognized such individuals, with the twelfth
imam being the person of Mahdi, who will herald the arrival of Jesus Christ on earth.