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Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
#1
Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
The widespread believe in the mainstream mind, is that Islam is one thing; a "central" ideology that is believed to be true by 1 & a half Billion.
But the truth cannot be any close to this, than water's closeness to acid.

Islam in reality, is actually more 2 religions, each claims being original, and each claims being authentic. The ideology differs so much between the distinct religions, furthermore they are spread in specific geographical locations that add a nationalistic/racist side to them, let alone the tribal nature that each version of Islam has.

In direct & strange act of embedded blasphemy, central "councils" act as the main referential of the chosen faith; the leaders and big figures in each referential are the main motivators for the wheel of the faith; keeping it fresh through a system known as "the fatwa system"; that is, a system of issuing a certain order to the followers of the faith in order to execute.

As interesting as this might get, let's discuss the biggest religions:

1-Shia Islam:

This religion is mainly the conclusion of a noble family's misery and grief; the Prophet of Islam -Mohammed-'s daughter -Fatima-, marrying Mohammed's cousin -Ali-, gave birth to two male kids: Hassan & Hussain.

Their father, Ali, was chosen as the man in charge -caliphate; leader- in the newborn Islamic empire, since Ali came to the throne right after an assassination that took the life of the previous caliphate -Othman Ibn Affan-, Ali faced a pretty tight situation:

1-He must find the killers of the previous Caliphate, before the caliphate's tribe revolt
2-He must fix the disasters that Othman did in terms of wealth destitution
3-He must build a strong council

Ali chose cutthroats and wackos for allies -Whom would later turn into the infamous "Khawarij"-. As Ali proved failiure in ruling, he failed in all three objective: he delayed the investigation in the murder, he failed to fix what Othman did, and he failed in controlling his council.

He was confronted by the Prophet's widow; Aisha, the mother of all Muslims, his followers -well known for their brutality-, led the battle that was known as "the battle of the camel", despite the Quran's mentioning of the position of the prophet's wife -being the mother of all Muslims; including Ali-. 8000 from Aisha's army was killed.

Ali -consumed in his failure- couldn't hold, and another leader from the family of the ex-caliphate Othman came to power, Ali was assassinated, Aisha's companions were assassinated too, and Ali's son -Hussain- was assassinated too. During these troubled times, Mecca and the "Ka'aba" was bombarded with catapults; in a terrible unholy action.

The remnants of Ali & Hussain companions formed the Shia cult, with the word "Shia" means "the group of"; summing up their name to be "The Shia of Ali; The Shia of the Prophet's household". Or as it is pronounced in Arabic "Ahl-Al bayt".

They believe that there are "12 Imams"/Successors that would inherit each other and nobody but them should be obeyed; until they are finished with the "Mehdi" who would fill earth with the blood of the followers of Aisha. (if the Imam currently absent, a representative from the prophet's family is chosen; like a royal system).

Indeed, we can observe the tribal aspect in this cult.

2-Sunna faith:

The Sunna faith is the opposite of the Shia: Sunna are the people who either stood with the new leader who replaced Ali, or with Aisha,or the people who quit the warfare that was happening, and the people who blamed both parties -Aisha, Ali & Othman- for committing mistakes.

Sunnies too believe that the caliphate that should be obeyed must satisfy a tribal feature: coming from the tribe of "Quraish"; the same tribe that inhabited Mecca and gave birth to the Prophet.

The majority of Sunnies believe in the advent of the "Mehdi"too, but unlike Shia, they don't have an obsessive compulsive disorder regarding the Mehdi butchering the Shia; though cults like the Wahhabi cult, view Shia as infidels that should be butchered.
=====

3-Both parties smell bad:

Shia smell the worst, but each party is built on racist fundamentals, without tribalism and racism, both cults will never exist, it's a case of a religion that got mixed with tribal warfare between ancient Arabic noble clans. No wonder they can't agree.

Shia obviously lost over the long run -since the Shia cult is literally all about combating the followers of Aisha-, while the Sunni cult is pulvarising Islam through the worship of the tribe of "Quraish".

Frankly, I, despite going back to "Quraish", feel so sick, and choose to throw both cults behind my back, and fight their racism instead.
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#2
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
All religion smells bad....because it is all shit.
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#3
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
Salam

Chosen families are in Quran. For example the family of Abraham. Abraham, Sarah, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph.

God emphasized on offspring of Nuh for example being given Prophethood.

Aside from that, you have to study the verse leading up to verses that designate Leaders and possessors of the authority from this nation.

God is more worthy of being followed then we who are not guided unless God guides us. And for that he appoints Imams who Guide by his command.

I take it you speak Arabic. What has God said about "mulk" in Quran? 

Authority is of course the most important subject in Quran after Tawheed. Because it's how we can submit to God.

In the past Prophets held that authority of God. Talut was given God's authority as well.

God is the Master of authority, he gives the authority to who he pleases and negates it from who he pleases. 

Yahya was disobeyed due to "scholars" authority in Bani-Israel as well as the King that killed him.  But who was the true authority?

See the verses leading up to Ulil-Amr.
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#4
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
And when God tried Abraham with words so he completed them, he said I am making you an Leader for people, he said: and of my offspring? He said: my covenant does not include those who are unjust [at any point of their lives]. 

And we made them Leaders who guide by our command....

Verily God chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of Imran above the worlds.
Offspring, some of it from some, indeed he is the hearing the knowing.

The mercy of God and blessings are upon you O people of the Family indeed he is Majestic Praiseworthy

So we gave the family of Abraham the book and wisdom, and we gave them a great authority

And we made in their offspring the Prophethood

And remainder of what the family of Moses and the family of Aeron has left

And remember in the book Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, possessors of power and sights.

And Sulaiman inherited Dawood.
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#5
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
Quote:Aisha, the mother of all Muslims,

I don't get that Muhammad had lots of wives. But Aisha is somehow more special than the others? I think it's not hard to imagine there are "Quranists" out there who think Ali was nice.

Uthman/Othman was a noob. He took away people's Qurans which I think was really selfish a shortsighted. Now we can't see textual variations in the Quran. Controlled transmission, to me, suggests there was something to hide.

But those Twelvers I think you say they will dig up the graves of certain people when the final Imam arrives. This Mehdi guy I think it was. Sounds crazy.

Wahaabi/Salafis emphasize the Salaf (supposedly), like getting rid of Bidah, yet they memorize Hadith. There were no Hadith, as we know them today, the time of the Salafi, right? The Hadith were written and organized hundreds of years after Muhammad. If I were to ask them about this, about why the the Hadith are bad, they will tell me all about Isnad Chains. "Oh yes, the the Hadith are great!" they say. But then every ten year old Salafi/Wahaabi thinks themselves a scholar so they go out an harass people in the World Wide Web and with their "Dawah Tables". Children are not scholars?

It's amazing to me that people say "My religious is not homogeneous" and then they come out with a seemingly never ending list of people who can't be part of their religion because of reason X or reason Y. Hypocritical I think.

I've heard some people say increased "Quranism" is a sign of the "end times". Or just call them "liberal elites". Are you a liberal elite Atlas (2:20 in the video)? That flag of al-Saud's henchmen in Iraq and Syria in the corner of the video..WTF...I'm probably on a terrorist watch list now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s-DiRCa6u8

But, back to being serious, I think Shabir Ali has a much better video on "Quranism" for those interested (I don't like Shabir Ali but his video is more coherent). Apparently we need a "balanced approach to Hadith". But I think most people don't have the time to analyze each and every Hadith, even within just Bukhari alone, lets say, so it's unrealistic to expect the average person to go through all of the collections and all of the Hadith and decide for themselves. So they have to rely on others. But you won't know whose opinions to rely on unless you've done your own research, so you could be easily led astray (especially if you're illiterate, as many people in Africa and Asia are).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBiqdvKlRAw

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#6
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
To give a analysis on the verses leading up to Ulil-Amr which is one of the main reasons I believe in Imammate of the family of Mohammad.

First it reminds of a people who were entrusted with the revelation of God but then disobeyed God's Messengers. The question really is how did this happen? If we do a study of what happened in Bani-Israel, they gave equal authority or even more authority to their scholars with the Prophets. The scholars hence then lead them astray despite the clear proofs of miracles as well as scriptures from God.

Then it emphasizes a certain people attribute purity to themselves from them and this is sufficient as a lie against God. The lie is that they are claiming to be his representatives who due to their purity and sincerity have reached a level where they can represent God and his Prophets.

It emphasizes in this context that God doesn't forgive associating with him. Then it reminds us there is a portion from the people give a portion of the book that believe in the Jibt and Taghut, and say these people are more guided then those who believe.

Then it says "do they have a share in the mulk", I would translate it here as in "authority", because they weren't claiming to have a share in God's kingdom or control of the heavens and the earth or anything like that. What they there claiming was that they were leaders that ought to be followed with respect to the guidance.   So here it is posing a good question do they share in the authority?

But what is the true authority? "Or do they envy the people for what God has given them out of his grace? So we gave the family of Abraham, the book, and the wisdom, and gave them a great authority"

Here what is the great authority the family of Abraham was given? They were Prophets and hence obedience to them was obedience to God.  They were to be followed so that God is followed spiritually socially and politically. 

But it being in contrast to the authority scholars was claiming, it's saying, do you claim you been given the same authority that the family of Abraham was given?

Then it talks about "So of them is who believed in it and of them is who turned away from it, and hell is sufficient as a burning", so the authority of the family of Abraham was not something that can be turned away from.

Those they were envying to me were obviously a chosen family like the family of Abraham or else the comparison would be misleading,  and they had similar authority.

Then the Quran says "Indeed those who disbelieve in our Ayat...", in Quran Jesus and Mary are said t to be an "Ayah" and hence with flow, although this includes Quran is primarily about those given authority of God. 

"And as for those who believe..." ie. it can be seen that faith includes faith in all of God's Ayat, because that is way to submit to him and follow him.

Then it says "God commands you to give the trust to it's owners...", it can be said, that leadership itself a trust and we ought to give it to people who God appoints as opposed to making fallible people into leaders. "and that when you judge between people, you judge by justice", the justice is by applying what God and his Messenger teach, the Quran and Sunnah, as the next verses would indicate.

And in this flow, in this context, after emphasizing the false authority some people of the book were claiming in leadership over people, and compares to the authority they were claiming to that of the family of Abraham and that being really the authority those who they were envying were given, and emphasizes on reward and punishment with regards to believing or disbelieving in this authority...

It emphasizes all with this flow:

O you who believe, obey God and obey the Messenger and those who possess the authority from you: therefore if you dispute in a thing, refer it to God and the Messenger, if you believe in God and the last day, this is better and best in the end.


I would understand people saying the above verse is ambiguous in itself, but given the talk above, giving the context, given the flow, and given what the whole of Quran has said regarding leadership and authority, it no doubt refers to those who God has chosen for himself, those leaders who were never unjust and guide by God's authority/command.
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#7
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
so Atlas, lemme get this straight... you don't like shia and you don't like sunni, so you made up your own religion based on Islam and called it Islam ? Brilliant..

Why don't you just admit that it's an awful religion ? you're just like moderate muslims, not being muslims, but calling themselves mulsims...
[Image: eUdzMRc.gif]
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#8
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
Plus Sufi, Ismaili, and Ahmadi. Oh, and Sufi Universalism, maybe. Is that all of them?
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#9
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
(April 15, 2016 at 10:58 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Plus Sufi, Ismaili, and Ahmadi. Oh, and Sufi Universalism, maybe. Is that all of them?

and Wahhabism ..it's a branch of sunni
[Image: eUdzMRc.gif]
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#10
RE: Shia & Sunna: Why I don't believe
(April 14, 2016 at 10:13 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Salam

Chosen families are in Quran. For example the family of Abraham. Abraham, Sarah, Ismael, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph.

God emphasized on offspring of Nuh for example being given Prophethood.

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله و بركاته Smile
When God choose from within humanity, you can't expect the chosen to be clean since birth.
That's a heathen type of ideology, what differs Islam from all religions is equality and justice. Nobody gets to be pure since birth on this earth, in terms of the universe, only God is pure

"Chosen" refers to blessing certain people with knowledge and -you guessed that right- the revelation that can take the form of "books".
But it was very clear, that the "chosen" can ruin the day, become unworthy, in other words God gave them a blessing, and what they would do with it is totally up to them.

The famous example, is the infamous "Israelite" clan, you can see here how they were chosen:

Sura 2
 47 )   O Children of Israel, remember My favor that I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds.
( 48 )   And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided.

Then, you see this verse:

Sura 20
( 80 )   O Children of Israel, We delivered you from your enemy, and We made an appointment with you at the right side of the mount, and We sent down to you manna and quails,
( 81 )   [Saying], "Eat from the good things with which We have provided you and do not transgress [or oppress others] therein, lest My anger should descend upon you. And he upon whom My anger descends has certainly fallen."
( 82 )   But indeed, I am the Perpetual Forgiver of whoever repents and believes and does righteousness and then continues in guidance.

As you can see, it's mostly in your hands. God gives -that's how he choses you-, but that doesn't clear your name or make you pure, like heathens believe about their "chosen ones"; go Zeus style on mount Olympus and all..

What are you gonna do with the blessing? the children of Israel -for the most part- did this:

Sura 2
( 211 )   Ask the Children of Israel how many a sign of evidence We have given them. And whoever exchanges the favor of Allah [for disbelief] after it has come to him - then indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

How would a chosen one, "CHOSEN", do this? then the concept of chosen is not what you would actually find in the Shia version of Islam; Mystic, or in the heathen religions of Greece and Ancient Egypt.

Let alone, Ali and his group were never mentioned by name or refered to in the Quran, all what shia have is some Hadiths that have a comical, laughable contented that denies every word in the book.

Chosen in Islam means something else. A chosen one can so be a lying scumbag who ends up in hell, this verse explains it:

Sura 6
( 87 )   And [some] among their fathers and their descendants and their brothers - and We chose them and We guided them to a straight path.

( 88 )   That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whomever He wills of His servants. But if they had associated others with Allah, then worthless for them would be whatever they were doing.

( 89 )   Those are the ones to whom We gave the Scripture and authority and prophethood. But if the disbelievers deny it, then We have entrusted it to a people who are not therein disbelievers.
( 90 )   Those are the ones whom Allah has guided, so from their guidance take an example. Say, "I ask of you for this message no payment. It is not but a reminder for the worlds."

So I enlarged the text so it stands out..
Ah, they can totally go astray. I mean, wasn't the story of "Joseph" and his brothers, just about that ?
Joseph's brothers were sons of Jacob, decendants of "Abraham", they should be guided ones, but all we saw was them carrying on domestic abuse and drown children inside wells.

Just like the movie: the ring.





If you're wearing headphones, lower the volume.
The scene is creepy.

These are the actions of "the guided ones".





What did poor Joseph feel inside that well..I can't imagine.
Poor Joseph.

Sura 12
( 9 )   Kill Joseph or cast him out to [another] land; the countenance of your father will [then] be only for you, and you will be after that a righteous people."
( 10 )   Said a speaker among them, "Do not kill Joseph but throw him into the bottom of the well; some travelers will pick him up - if you would do [something]."

Poor Joseph. No wonder Jacob got blind from sadness:

Sura 12
( 84 )   And he turned away from them and said, "Oh, my sorrow over Joseph," and his eyes became white from grief, for he was [of that] a suppressor.

And, let's not forget about Jonah:

Sura 21:
( 87 )   And [mention] the man of the fish, when he went off in anger and thought that We would not decree [anything] upon him. And he called out within the darknesses, "There is no deity except You; exalted are You. Indeed, I have been of the wrongdoers."

A guided one, does that?? strange..

Guided, is not what the Shia faith dictates, Mystic.
The Shia faith orders you to worship humans, so when a piece of shit like this:

[Image: 150516091546_khamenei__640x360_ap.jpg]

Orders you to pay taxes and agree on the invasion of Iraq, you bite chew swallow, and shut up, because he is "the heir" of the guided ones.
Guided?if prophets like jonah, went astray and survived with a miracle, who is Ali again?

I'm sorry Mystic, but the Shia concepts are nothing but tribal nonsense that is not backed by the slightest evidence. Above I showed you how the Quran denies the faith in its core.

But eventually, here's what God thinks about "the family of Mohammed"; his own uncle:

Sura 111
( 1 )   May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he.
( 2 )   His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained.
( 3 )   He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame
( 4 )   And his wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood.
( 5 )   Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber.

Nobody gets a free ride in this life, Mystic.
May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined; the prophet's own uncle. Islam destroyed tribalism. Nobody gets guidance since birth, even if Iranian politicians tried to fool you with that.
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