Mass shootings a question for atheists.

[Brian37]

Every time we hear about events like this the god talk always happens. I am looking to hear from any atheist who has been witness to, or lost a loved one, not just at the Denver theater, but any event anywhere in the past.

If theists are going to use these horrible events to advertise for their deity, why shouldn't atheist who can and are victims of crime as well, why shouldn't you open up and talk about your feelings?

I just get a bit sick to see our common humanity get tossed aside when these horrible events happen get monopolized by theists as if they are the only ones who suffer.

[Creed of Heresy]

They better not fucking use this as an excuse to advertise their deity, I swear I'll fucking hurt the first fucker who does.

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But I get where you're coming from, here. It's always very awkward to be an atheist who just suffered a tragedy...you never really have an extra grounding for your grief. The barrage of "[relative] is in a better place now...s/he is with god, now" always just...makes me cringe. I can't say "Fuck you, I don't believe in that shit." I can't say "Yes, she is," because I don't buy that shit and it'd be disingenuous to say so. And I can't go "I don't believe that, but thank you," because then for some reason the person who said it starts looking at you funny.

Happens every fucking time.

[Brian37]

They better not fucking use this as an excuse to advertise their deity, I swear I'll fucking hurt the first fucker who does.

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But I get where you're coming from, here. It's always very awkward to be an atheist who just suffered a tragedy...you never really have an extra grounding for your grief. The barrage of "[relative] is in a better place now...s/he is with god, now" always just...makes me cringe. I can't say "Fuck you, I don't believe in that shit." I can't say "Yes, she is," because I don't buy that shit and it'd be disingenuous to say so. And I can't go "I don't believe that, but thank you," because then for some reason the person who said it starts looking at you funny.

Happens every fucking time.

No need for threats here. We are still the same species. I am just asking for personal stories to counter the idea that a deity is need to cope with trauma.

I get just as sick of it as you. But we are still talking about human suffering.

[Cato]

Fuck off Brian! Nobody tossed aside our common humanity, except for the individual ass-hat that committed the crime. "...by theists as if they are the only ones who suffer.". What pastiche sense of nonsense is this? I haven't read anywhwere, not even on AF, where a theist has proclaimed that this particular tragedy can only be empathized with by those who have a resolute belief in the God of Abraham. If by this you are exclaiming to be an atheist cause martyr, I will be first in line with a rusty nail and a wooden spoon to drive it.

Unsubstantiated bullshit = poet's preogative; I suppose.

I have yet to hear any 'God talk' on this matter. I have heard several calls to prayer. Although I think prayer is misplaced and ineffectual, I do understand why some resort to this considering what happened. Prayer, in this instance, is simply the means with which the devout extend the natural human emotion of empathy.

[Brian37]

If you think this is bullshit, that is your opinion. There is only one person to blame like you said that is the shooter. DUH and thanks for the update.

But you are out of your fucking mind if you think people do not claim, WHICH THEY ALWAYS FUCKING DO ON CAMERA, just watch the fucking interviews, "By God's grace I survived"

If it is merely about empathy, and mourning, how quickly would these same people jump all over an atheist if they were part of this and got on camera and said "I feel sorry for everyone. As an atheist I feel I merely got lucky. My thoughts go out to all the families".

If you proclaimed your non belief like they claim their belief, you would get public condemnation. If you want to wallow in second class status and sit at the back of the bus and allow them to pretend you don't exist, be my guest.

I don't think any part of human life, including death, deserves a pass. If they want to pray no one should stop them. But you are a fool if you think those same people would put up with you doing the same thing they are accustom to.

You do know that American Atheists was denied a permit to conduct a secular memorial at Ground Zero? WE are second class citizens.

[Faith No More]

Using a tragedy such as this to promote religion or a lack thereof is not only insensitive, it's despicable. I have yet to see one theist make a claim that they are the only ones that suffer.

[Creed of Heresy]

Easy, Cato, whatcha got against poets? I fancy myself one.

I haven't seen theists make the claim that they're the only ones to suffer...but I do see a lot of the whole "divine intervention" claims popping up quite often during tragedies. We human beings have a strange tendency to want to give a reason where there is none beyond situational chance and self-preservation for surviving or enduring a calamity.

I mostly just hate when someone saves someone else's life and the individual saved says "s/he was sent by god" or something. Detract from the deed of the individual and give credit to some unproven entity! Yeah, that makes sense... No wonder altruism is dying out...

[Cato]

If you think this is bullshit, that is your opinion. There is only one person to blame like you said that is the shooter. DUH and thanks for the update.

But you are out of your fucking mind if you think people do not claim, WHICH THEY ALWAYS FUCKING DO ON CAMERA, just watch the fucking interviews, "By God's grace I survived"

If it is merely about empathy, and mourning, how quickly would these same people jump all over an atheist if they were part of this and got on camera and said "I feel sorry for everyone. As an atheist I feel I merely got lucky. My thoughts go out to all the families".

If you proclaimed your non belief like they claim their belief, you would get public condemnation. If you want to wallow in second class status and sit at the back of the bus and allow them to pretend you don't exist, be my guest.

I don't think any part of human life, including death, deserves a pass. If they want to pray no one should stop them. But you are a fool if you think those same people would put up with you doing the same thing they are accustom to.

You do know that American Atheists was denied a permit to conduct a secular memorial at Ground Zero? WE are second class citizens.

You didn't miss my bit about unsubstantiated claims, that is clear. What's fucking deplorable is that without substantiation you troll out what 'some' (not all) theists do to justify your misplaced rant. In your case, even the 'some' have yet to display their ignorance and you are in full five alarm mode.

Would I be surprised if Pat Robertson proclaimed Batman the Devil and everyone in the theater deserved it? No, I would not; however, the dipshit has not proclaimed it yet. What if the Westboro Baptist Church said something similar? In the immortal words of Clark W. Griswald, "I wouldn't be more surprised if I woke up with my head sewn to the carpet".

Do you not get it yet, Brian? Keep your cunt hole shut unless you have actual reasons for indignation; otherwise, someone might come along and put a cock in it to shut you up. For younger members, the story was called crying wolf....or something of the sort.

[zebo-the-fat]

What a pity the all seeing, all powerful, all knowing god didn't give this bastard a stroke before he went out that day!

[Brian37]

Using a tragedy such as this to promote religion or a lack thereof is not only insensitive, it's despicable. I have yet to see one theist make a claim that they are the only ones that suffer.

Agreed, but that still DOES NOT CHANGE the double standard that theists get a pass when expressing their beliefs during tragedy.

If they can claim "I am just expressing myself" and most people, including atheists here reading this, then please explain to me why it would not be possible for atheists to mention their beliefs without it being an agenda?

"He is with god now", fine, or "I pray for the victim's family", again fine.

So why couldn't an atheist in this setting say "As an atheist our thoughts go out to both the family's and the victims". So if any time we do something like that it should always be viewed as political? But when they do it it is not?

It seems to me a double standard for theists to get a pass and we assume they are not being political, but if we do the same thing, suddenly we are?

I am not talking about the debate of the logic of a god. I am not talking about a private funeral or private memorial. I am talking about the expectation of silence by believers when on camera or during a public memorial.

It is the monopoly I object to, in any aspect of life, including public mourning, that we cant do the same things in expression of empathy, that they take for granted while expecting atheists to remain silent.

What we are doing in this thread IS NOT a public memorial or even a private funeral. It is bringing up a real issue of discrimination on the part of theists.

What you say is not lost on me. When my grandfather died, he had a pastor speak, and I kept my mouth shut. I help carry the casket, and another prayer, again, kept my mouth shut the entire time. Hugged family and friends and so on and cried myself.

On the other hand, my brother, knowing I was an atheist, spoke at the funeral and I hadn't said a damned thing said at the pulpit, LOOKING DIRECTLY AT ME, as "hint hint", TO ME, "Granddad would have wanted you to find god". That asshole knew damned well my Grandfather who did believe didn't give one fuck what I believed and was simply happy to have me in his life.

That is bad enough, and no one else who spoke for him pulled that shit. The rest of them talked about what a great father and grand father he was. I was fine with that, even with the god talk.

But these same people, even outside a private funeral, WOULD get pissed even if it was a not political offering of sympathy on behalf of an atheist or atheist group. The logic of a god claim is a separate issue. But there is a double standard in these settings.

Why should we refrain from saying that our atheism is part of our coping.It is the monopoly and the unreasonable expectation that they can do it, but we shouldn't.

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I have yet to see one theist make a claim that they are the only ones that suffer.

They don't say it, but far too many of A VARIETY of labels act like it.. Otherwise if they truly accepted that their beliefs are not the center of the universe, then they would not object to you stating your atheism as part of your mourning. As soon as those who would object, object, they are expressing their own insecurities, they are not valuing your rights.

Of course we are not going to get most people of an label to stop stating god claims during times of trauma. But if you think they wouldn't object to you stating your atheism during a time of trauma, you are fooling yourself, and you are allowing them to bully you into second class status.

This to me was no different than when Christians objected to Muslims speaking at the 9/11 memorial, or even buying LEGALLY a building in NYC.

This is a hypocrisy issue. Atheists are still the least trusted minority in the United States. While we are not the only ones discriminated against, times of trauma are part of our lives too, and we have as much right as any theist to state our positions as being part of our coping, WITHOUT them claiming it is always political in that setting.