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Afghanistan..troops out NOW!
#11
RE: Afghanistan..troops out NOW!
Hey,

I very much appreciate your opinion. I just have a few personal issues with those statements. I don't know if Saddam or Osama are on par with Hitler's Germany, as seen as a legitimate threat to all of us. It is a difficult debate.

Also, if the moral justification for going to war with a sovereign nation is that they 'committed atrocities', why are we not at war with more nations? Where was the war on Rwanda? Where is the war on Darfur? Why isn't America (or Britain or Canada) declaring war on their own atrocities before condemning other countries?

I am sorry you went to Iraq, and were wounded. That must have been a horrible experience. War always is, by her nature. It is possible that the Afghani people feel that America is the warlord, and is instigating more of the same problems. As I was fond to say, "We went to Baghdad (again) so that they could have bikinis instead of burqas,". It did not seem like anyone asked if they wanted our culture. It doesn't really matter if we are offended by their culture, they are as offended by ours. All of the moral justification I see is lacking, and more so any intelligent debate in any public forum I have seen. At least here in this country. No one has asked if this is really necessary...

Again, I have the up most respect for your guys views on this subject above all. I think the best way to support the troops is to demand that the government is responsible in deciding when to ask our friends and children to die for them. It had better be a good reason, that is their responsibility. If they do not have a good reason, are acting out of self interest (with your life) then they are your greatest enemy.

This might be like the 'gay kid' thread. I may not be able to disagree with the norm without seeming like a crazy... But alas, I don't decide on how to act based on what I think others will do to me. I just say what I feel I have too.

Thank you,
No War,
-Pip
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#12
RE: Afghanistan..troops out NOW!
(July 13, 2009 at 7:24 am)Pippy Wrote:
Quote:...as such lives have been wasted.
Kyu, just so we're clear. Is that the lives of Brits? Americans? Canadians? Do you consider the likely over 2 million dead middle-easterners (as a result of this war action) as a waste? Or is that the 'gotta break a few eggs' thing? I see most humans as equal, certainly not better or worse on a racial or social whole. So a few million dead crushes me more than a few thousand. And usually, so far, we don't send old woman and young children into combat... I only wish to point out that every life lost in war is a waste. Inasmuch as dying is kind of wasteful (from one little angle), we have already gone over that.

Just so we're clear Pip ... I was specifically referring to the troops since it was "us" (the US & the UK) that instigated the conflict.

No, I don't view all human life as equal, in some parts of the world life is cheap.

Kyu
Angry Atheism
Where those who are hacked off with the stupidity of irrational belief can vent their feelings!
Come over to the dark side, we have cookies!

Kyuuketsuki, AngryAtheism Owner & Administrator
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#13
RE: Afghanistan..troops out NOW!
(July 13, 2009 at 4:33 am)leo-rcc Wrote:
(July 12, 2009 at 4:27 pm)bozo Wrote: I would not aprove of any of my family getting sent there.

Well that is not up to you is it? I would prefer it if he was safe at home, but as he volunteered that is his decision.

(July 12, 2009 at 4:27 pm)bozo Wrote: The sane decision is to withdraw.

It is not that easy. Just because it gets a bit dicey the forces cannot leave the people in Afghanistan behind in the mess they created in the first place.

Whether I approve is very much up to me actually. I am father of 3 and if any of them had expressed a wish to join the military, particularly at cannon-fodder level, I would have done my damdest to convince them not to. At the bottom level, it is essentially the fact that for working class lads ( in the majority, I'M not being sexist ) job opportunities are so poor that the armed forces offer just enough remuneration to tempt youngsters with not much of a future to " take the queen's shilling ". Once taken they are then caught in the trap and must " do their duty ".

If you are involved in a war that is unwinnable, as the history of incursions into Afghanistan show, then I wqould argue that the government has a primary duty to protect its own, in this case the armed forces whose lives are at stake. It's that easy.
(July 13, 2009 at 8:02 am)Dotard Wrote: Hitler committed atrocities. An alliance was needed to stop him. The entirety of Europe had to be reduced to rubble to achieve this. They did not stop and turn around and leave once he was stopped, an occupation was needed.

Saddam committed atrocities. This alliance was needed to stop him.

The Taliban committed atrocities. This alliance was needed to stop them.

The alliance cannot just pack up and leave, an occupation is needed to keep the warlords from just installing more of the same.


Just the 2 cents from one who has been there (Iraq - PurpleHeart recipient) and believes in the cause.

The Hitler period was a WORLD WAR. In my view it was a just war. Fascism had to be defeated. My own country, England, was threatened with occupation. I would have fought and I would have approved of my offspring fighting for our freedom. Fortunately, Hitler was defeated...at a cost of 54 million dead and a divided Europe and the beginning of the cold war and the threat of nuclear annhilation, so it wasn't all good news.

The war in Iraq was different. It was illegal, in my view and unnecessary. Occupation and curbing Saddam's excesses until he could be removed from power by the people of Iraq could have acieved a satisfactory outcome without all the suffering and loss of life, both military and civilian.

Afghanistan is not solely about the Taliban. The government is made up of all sorts of villains, warlords, drug barons etc, which reflects the history of the country, with its warring factions. In essence it is a civil war that is going on. We shouldn't be there.

Bottom line, there are bad regimes around the globe yet not all are selected for invasion. I wonder why?

I respect that you have been a fighter but at the same time I'm glad I've never been.
I just don't accept that being in the military means that you obey orders without questioning the legitimacy of the conflict.
Wasn't the nazi defence at the end of ww2 " I was only following orders "?
HuhA man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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#14
RE: Afghanistan..troops out NOW!
Quote:Bottom line, there are bad regimes around the globe yet not all are selected for invasion. I wonder why?

Invasions are only EVER carried out for the advantage of the invader.They follow one of the two and only two reasons for a war: To take something someone else has,or stop someone else from taking what you have. Specifically,wars are about territory, resources and power.It's only a matte of degree from macro (national) to micro (personal)
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#15
RE: Afghanistan..troops out NOW!
Hey,

Kyu.
Quote:Just so we're clear Pip ... I was specifically referring to the troops since it was "us" (the US & the UK) that instigated the conflict.
No, I don't view all human life as equal, in some parts of the world life is cheap.
If you are care more about a couple thousand dead soldiers than at least 2 million, maybe 4 million dead iraqi and afghanis civilians, you (in my humble opinion) are a sick person in the head. Or at least you have trouble seeing things as they are.

By saying that life is cheap, you have made it true. The place where life seems to be cheapest is in your computer chair.

I hope this isn't too mean, but what you said is absurd. Just absurd.
Thanks, this is after all, only my tired little opinion.
-Pip
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#16
RE: Afghanistan..troops out NOW!
(July 13, 2009 at 9:20 pm)Pippy Wrote:
Quote:Just so we're clear Pip ... I was specifically referring to the troops since it was "us" (the US & the UK) that instigated the conflict.
No, I don't view all human life as equal, in some parts of the world life is cheap.
If you are care more about a couple thousand dead soldiers than at least 2 million, maybe 4 million dead iraqi and afghanis civilians, you (in my humble opinion) are a sick person in the head. Or at least you have trouble seeing things as they are. By saying that life is cheap, you have made it true. The place where life seems to be cheapest is in your computer chair. I hope this isn't too mean, but what you said is absurd. Just absurd.

OK,

It would be absurd if I couldn't justify it but being me of course I can (whether you agree or not).

So you believe you care about 2 million Afghan dead more than you believe about, for example, your family, is that right?

If so (if that is what you are claiming) then I don't believe you quite simply because I would put my family before anyone else in the world. Then there's that tsunami (Dec 2004 I believe) ... 200,000 people were killed (maybe more) and yes it was horrific but one thing I am absolutely sure of and that is if 10,000 people in my own town had died in similar circumstances (or even dissimilar) that would have been way, way, way more shocking and I would have cared an awful lot more. If 1000 from my home town had died I'd have cared more, if 10 had died I'd probably have cared more. Why? Because these people are people I can relate to and/or I care about more than I do about a whole bunch of strangers around the Indian Ocean. And there's also the fact that I can't really deal with 1000 deaths let alone 200,000 or 2 million ... it's an entirely abstract concept.

So I care about my immediate family most, then my friends and more distant family (I'[d probably put my friends ahead of distant family but that's just me), then people in my community, then my country and then (probably) Europe and America because of cultural similarities and finally places I can't identify with at all like Afghanistan.

So whether you think I'm sick person or not (like I really give a flying [expletive deleted] what you personally think of me, I'm only doing this to justify my position to others and to stop you getting the last word) yeah ... I value others in very different ways and many people have many different values to me for many different reasons ... and yes, having been in the UK army, 20000 British soldiers mean a whole lot more to me than a bunch of Afghani's I have never met.

I would also say that you and others who claim to value life equally are a bunch of deluded fools because it's not what humans do and I suspect you (and they) do it more out of some kind of politically correct (SPIT!) motivation than for any other reason.

So yeah absurd it may be (I don't agree) but nowhere near as absurd as being a scientifically ignorant fool who believes fairy tales over reality.

Kyu
Angry Atheism
Where those who are hacked off with the stupidity of irrational belief can vent their feelings!
Come over to the dark side, we have cookies!

Kyuuketsuki, AngryAtheism Owner & Administrator
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#17
RE: Afghanistan..troops out NOW!
Hey again,

First things first, what I wrote before was scathing, and I apologize for that. I stand by my argument, and the need I felt to make clear how much I disagree, but it may have gone overboard...

Quote:So you believe you care about 2 million Afghan dead more than you believe about, for example, your family, is that right?
No, that is not right. We weren't talking about my family. I referenced your prior statement that included only soldiers and civilians involved in the two outstanding wars, and was myself only referencing those two groups. How much I value my friends and family over strangers never entered the conversation, and I think it is another topic entirely.

So to stay on point...
Quote:If so (if that is what you are claiming) then I don't believe you quite simply because I would put my family before anyone else in the world.
That, as I pointed out above, is not at all what I am claiming. You don't believe that I think a certain way, only because you think differently? I don't see an entire planet of Kyu's, but it may be close... I wouldn't really put any one individual, even my beloved mother over any other. It sometimes tries too happen, but I work hard to be fair and reasonable, to be above my instincts. But you don't think that way, so feel free that I simply cannot either.

Quote:Because these people are people I can relate to and/or I care about more than I do about a whole bunch of strangers around the Indian Ocean. And there's also the fact that I can't really deal with 1000 deaths let alone 200,000 or 2 million ... it's an entirely abstract concept.
I know that there are people that are literally 'strangers around the Indian ocean', but I honestly feel that I attempt to consider them fellow humans with the same responsibilities and privileges I demand for myself. I admit that I am not upset in degrees as much when a family member dies, and when someone (or a few) people die on the other side of the world. But I do very much care about the people I have never met.

If you're saying that they have no (or markedly less) value alive or dead because they are lacking in 'cultural similarities' with yourself and make it difficult for you to 'identify' with them... Just think about that statement for a while. Consider the presuppositions in it. How does it make you any different at all from the 'terrorists' you might claim these people to be? How is that not the same flawed logic that radical Islamist militants are using against said troops?

Quote:I would also say that you and others who claim to value life equally are a bunch of deluded fools because it's not what humans do and I suspect you (and they) do it more out of some kind of politically correct (SPIT!) motivation than for any other reason.
May I please patiently remind you that it is not in the best interests of factual exactitude to lump everyone who makes some similar statements into one category. Please don't judge me based on what others have said to you in you life, as it is absolutely irrelevant, and kind of unfair. I do a lot of things that are either 'not what humans do' or a lot of other people do 'not what humans do'... Hard to say. We could have an entirely separate discussion about what is and is not human nature, but alas, again, we should stay on track. Never is my motivator "political correctness" (a term I also dislike). If it was I would have lived a MUCH different life.

If you must know, or at least if I may correct your inaccuracy... I do it because it seems right. That to break the cycle of people de-humanizing and killing each other we have to accept all other humans as equals. I know most of the world isn't at that page yet, and to do so alone is not productive, but I try to do it anyways. Because it seems like the right thing to do (my most common motivator).

Quote:So yeah absurd it may be (I don't agree) but nowhere near as absurd as being a scientifically ignorant fool who believes fairy tales over reality.
Absurd, as are some of your points, I feel it certainly is. You are displaying immature behavior on a very large scale. Not that you are being immature in a big way, but that you are failing to meet your 'large-scale' or 'world-scale' responsibilities as a human. The state of mind you proudly describe is one of perpetual pain and conflict, but again, that is only what I think. I love your insults, because they are always so apt. I could easily describe you (from my limited point of view) as a scientifically ignorant fool that believes fairy tales over reality. The irony of that makes me smile. We think the same poor things about one another, kind of charming really.

But I am rambling again. I hold a high value to every human life on the planet, and am very, very personally upset with every death (on both sides) during these wars. I almost lean towards feeling worse for the Afghani people, as they are not soldiers by trade. But I admit that that would be crossing the line in the other direction. Whether or not you yourself do as such, or even if you believe I can or do is fine. I only think that treating other humans as less human is a very slippery slope that you would be upset at the least to find yourself on the other end of. If someone said about your life's value what you say about these people, I think you might be offended. At the very least you would be quick to find fault, if only morally, with his stance. This is a heavy topic. The war is pointless, every death is a waste.

No War,
-Pip
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#18
RE: Afghanistan..troops out NOW!
Pippy,

This statement can't be literally true or you would have to be medicated to deal with your grief. Either that or you have such a low threshold of feeling for life that you are equally dissaffected by a death of someone very close to you. I very much doubt that you explode with grief every time you hear of a person dieing. on the planet. somewhere.

(July 14, 2009 at 8:52 am)Pippy Wrote: ...I hold a high value to every human life on the planet, and am very, very personally upset with every death (on both sides)...

I don't think that Kyu is talking about his personal choice in how he feels about other nations. He simply realizes that the more that you identify with a person the more you will feel when one of their number die. He was using family as the "close" side of the spectrum, because those are the ones that most people identify more with than any other humans on the planet.

Kyu,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't imagine you consciously choose to devalue anyone so much as you realize that is a natural thing that happens in our minds.

Rhizo
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#19
RE: Afghanistan..troops out NOW!
Come on everyone. Saddam had WMD's and he was going to launch them at the UK and the USA. We needed to invade!
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#20
RE: Afghanistan..troops out NOW!
(July 14, 2009 at 12:29 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Come on everyone. Saddam had WMD's and he was going to launch them at the UK and the USA. We needed to invade!

Wrong country.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
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