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The assumption the other person doesn't know.
September 22, 2012 at 5:26 pm
I know many Muslims, they always assume, non-Muslims when it comes to moral issues opposing Islam (or a version of Islam), don't know. For example, they don't know for sure it's wrong to kill apostates for apostasy.
But once you step into that knowledge yourself, you feel like, wait a minute, didn't I sort of hear that call towards it being wrong, but didn't listen to it deep within for various factors?
The question is, are you guys willing to say it's possible, the same is the case of knowing God via not knowing him.
That people assume the other people don't know, just like many Muslims assume people don't know killing apostates for apostasy is wrong but that once you step into that knowledge, it becomes clear?
I'm not arguing what is the case, just whether it's logically possible.
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RE: The assumption the other person doesn't know.
September 23, 2012 at 3:06 pm
I think your wording is slightly confusing. What do you mean by "once you step into that knowledge yourself"? Do you mean "by being part of and understanding Islam"?
And your example puzzles me as well. The Quran clearly outlines that apostates must be killed. You are saying that "Muslims assume people don't know killing apostates for apostasy is wrong"? :/ But it is in fact Muslims that are obliged to kill other Muslims should they want to detach from Islam. Why would people outside of Islam not know that killing apostates is wrong?
I want to understand your example before trying to answer your question of "knowing" a god.
My candle burns at both ends;
It will not last the night;
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends -
It gives a lovely light!
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RE: The assumption the other person doesn't know.
September 23, 2012 at 5:20 pm
(This post was last modified: September 23, 2012 at 5:22 pm by Darkstar.)
(September 22, 2012 at 5:26 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I know many Muslims, they always assume, non-Muslims when it comes to moral issues opposing Islam (or a version of Islam), don't know. For example, they don't know for sure it's wrong to kill apostates for apostasy.
But once you step into that knowledge yourself, you feel like, wait a minute, didn't I sort of hear that call towards it being wrong, but didn't listen to it deep within for various factors?
The question is, are you guys willing to say it's possible, the same is the case of knowing God via not knowing him.
That people assume the other people don't know, just like many Muslims assume people don't know killing apostates for apostasy is wrong but that once you step into that knowledge, it becomes clear?
I'm not arguing what is the case, just whether it's logically possible.
But that is an apparent truth, clearly the existence of god isn't, otherwise there wouldn't be atheists. If I have a deck of cards and declare that the top card is the king of clubs, and it turns out to be so am I psychic or just lucky? Did I 'know' it was, or was it just by chance? In your example, people knew precisely because religion is unnecessary for a solid moral foundation. The existence of god isn't really the same. In short, yes: it's possible to know something without being explicitly told it, but, I don't think that applies to god.
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
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RE: The assumption the other person doesn't know.
September 23, 2012 at 6:36 pm
(September 23, 2012 at 3:06 pm)Whatkins Wrote: I think your wording is slightly confusing. What do you mean by "once you step into that knowledge yourself"? Do you mean "by being part of and understanding Islam"?
I meant in the knowledge that killing apostates is wrong.
Quote:The Quran clearly outlines that apostates must be killed.
That's news to me. I know verses that oppose an apostate is to be killed for apostasy, and I don't know of any that says they are to be killed. In hadiths however it is stated to kill apostates, and scholars do authenticate those narrations and Muslims do follow their scholars.
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RE: The assumption the other person doesn't know.
September 23, 2012 at 6:54 pm
Yeah. I totally don't get what it is you're asking.
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RE: The assumption the other person doesn't know.
September 23, 2012 at 7:05 pm
Belief , evidence and level of understanding . All confused in all of us to some degree . Is this what you mean?
And can it change...well yes. Just take out the belief bit and your on the right road.......
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RE: The assumption the other person doesn't know.
September 23, 2012 at 7:07 pm
(September 23, 2012 at 6:54 pm)apophenia Wrote: Yeah. I totally don't get what it is you're asking.
So, it wasn't just me then.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: The assumption the other person doesn't know.
September 23, 2012 at 7:17 pm
Pretty sure the question raised doesn't make sense and if it does its not worded very well. No offence.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die."
- Abdul Alhazred.
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RE: The assumption the other person doesn't know.
September 24, 2012 at 1:05 am
The difference is that god either exists or doesn't exist. The same as the Lochness Monster either exists or doesn't exist.
The wrongness of killing apostates is a moral judgement, not a fact. I don't think an equivalency can be made between them.
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RE: The assumption the other person doesn't know.
September 24, 2012 at 8:53 am
Let's face it....the majority of religions do not think that we atheists have a clue what they are on about.
WRONG!! We atheists have objectively viewed your pathetic excuse for fear based somnolence and have rejected it.
The fault is always with religion as far as I am to ascertain
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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