I am listening to Isreal's UN speech and the Ben brought up the same stale justifications for a "Jewish state". Now before any Jews go off falsely claiming sides, STOP and please don''t bother with that bullshit.
I DO value a secular Isreal much like our Constitution says "freedom of religion" and "no religious test" in our oath of office. But that is not what they want. While Isreal is still more progressive when it comes to pluralism, it still has that same falacious attitude much like when a Christian here says "Christian Nation".
He went on to quote the 3,000 year history of Jews and used that same lame excuse of tradition and "we were here first".And he also envoked the Holcouast as an excuse to have a "Jewish state".
To all parties involved, Jew, Muslim and Christian I submit that it is precisely because your holy books claim certainty of a god claim, is all the more reason to give up on any governmental idea of a religious state. Our founders who were a variety of beleifs understood that setting up pecking orders based on religion, was a bad idea. Freedom of religion should be protected in all societies, but the laws and constitutions of any should not place special pleading to one god being more important than all others.
I cannot see peace comming from Palistinians setting up a Muslim state, nor can I see peace comming from Isreal having a "Jewish state", and no Muslim or Jew living in America, for example, would say "Sure put a cross on the capital dome because that represents me too.
A secular state that values pluralism and religious neutrality allowing all to particispate while not setting up religious litmus tests or implied pecking orders is the only thing that can ultimately bring civility.
The problem with this conflict is the same as it was with Catlholics and Prodestants in Isrland. The attitude that being special is important and not common law.
I find it sick and morally repugnant to the Jews that died horrible deaths in Europe's death camp, as a political proxy land grab. The Jews that suffered should not be a lesson that "Jews suffered" but a lesson to all humans that this is not how humans should treat each other.
No one in the west I find moral wants Jews to leave. But just like we in America admit a Christian majority, our founders have said that our laws themselves are not bible based,
"As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" Article 11 barbary treaty signed WITHOUT dissent by both houses of congress into law by President John Adams.
Not that this is the goal of either Muslims or Jews, IT SHOULD BE. But what both sides want in reality which will never bring peace, is peace through the submission of others. At best right now, both sides have well intended people who at best, might be willing to treat the minority as a house guest.
In America freedom of religion is not set up on the bible. Nor are any of the words in the Constitution. Freedom of religion depends on a secular government who does not make claims about who is more important than the other.
I am tired of the history of both sides in "poor me" and "I have suffered" and "I am intitled". Niether side has any evolutionary understanding that neither's god claims were arround 500.000 years ago. And just like both Muslims and Jews do not buy the claims of the Ancient Egyptians, they should be able to understand why a secular state is more suited for pluralism than a state based on any religion or any sect of a religion.
I defend the western style government and open market system Isreal has. But just like they don't like the theocracy of Iran, they should not be selling the idea of even "theocracy light" where they wont harm you, but have the official stance that Jews are more special than all others. If it makes no sense for a Muslim or a Christian to say "we are more special than Jews", then the hypocracy of insisting on that implication is astounding.
The fact remains on a planet of 7 billion and over a half million years of our species evolution, if we are to have peace, it cannot be based on tradtion or religion, but the common law that remains neutral on the issue and allows all to participate without making public proclimations of whose god is best in an official capacity.
Why do I criticise Isreal? Because it is still about 100 years in the past. Although the founders were ahead of their time, it has constantly taken ov over 200 years of the use of that Constitution for Catholic JFK to get ellected, and Muslim Keith Elleson ellected and atheist Pete Stark ellected.
I see no good for either Muslims or Jews decrying tradition when the secular west has proven that your tradition DOES NOT have to go away, but it owns no rights as to proclaiming assendency over others.
My challeng to both parties involved, not that either side will listen. If either side wants a lesson on what pluralism looks like, what E-plurabus unum looks like, and a neutral state that values freedom of religion looks like, America is a constant growing example of what inclusion looks like. But that would not have happend if the founders insisted on a Jesus based Constitution.
I support a secular Isreal but I will never support a Jewish state anymore than I find it credible to claim America is a Christian nation. No, it has had a history of a majority of Christians, yes. But neither the Consitution or the founders ever claimed that America was officially a Christian state.
When any group in human history, claims their suffering is special or unique, be they Muslim, or Jew, or black or gay or atheist, it is nothing but human narcissism at work.
There have been tribal wars long before our current major beefs between the big three. But when you look at the places where their is more diversity what you see is that the laws are not religious based, but common law rooted in the idea that one's citizenship is not based on a label.
I fear that what I write here will fall both on the def ears of Muslims and Jews, when what I see is unfortunate mundane evolutionary tribalism which DOES NOT have to divide them, but does, because both sides are living in a mythological past rather than look to the future in mutual equality and cooperation.
Now, when I listened to this speech, Ben mentioned the history of his religion and the heros of his religion, so to the secular Jews and or secular Isrealis I say it is utter bullshit to falsely claim a "Jewish state" is secular. No matter how much one might want to claim "we are not bloodthristy" it is still saying " I am more special than non Jews".
The fact remains on a plaent of 7 billion we have to face that no one is going anywhere and we only serve to divide each other by insisting government play favorites creating assendencies of one religion over another. If it is wrong for Muslims and Christians to attempt it, then it is just as wrong when Jews attempt it.
Pluralism and freedom of religion cannot be religious based. It can only exist under a common law that protects the rights of all citizens without limus tests.
I urge both Palistine and Isreal to seek, not religious states, but seperate states that have neutral goverments that protect the freedom and rights of all. Any talk of a "religious state" to me is nothing more than selfish narcissim that only serves to divide.
I am not special because I am an atheist myself, nor is any Muslim or Jew or Christian. The adittude towards pluralism can only grow when we don't seek to claim to be "special", but become individuals under the unique and posititive attitude that what we have in common is not our religions, but our common condition based on common law.
Now before any Isreali or Jew responds, I am being fair to you and I do not want to hear this all or nothing blind loyalty crap. There are lots of things I see postive about a secular Isreal as it currently is and know that there are secular Isrealis who want this to end as much as the rest of the world.
No matter what country or nation or religion we are talking about, we are all the same species and sometimes dwelling in the past serves neither any good in comming to gether in the only future all of humanity has.
I'be seen this conflict go on since I was a kid. And the only thing I see is mundane evolutionary tribalism based on ancient superstition, BOTH theirs and yours.
It is an unreasonable expectation for any group of people to give up on past traditions, so in that sense no one should ask Jews to go extinct. Christianity is still here in America despite no mention in the Constitution of Jesus or Christianity getting most favored status.
I am angry at Isreal's PM and the disservice he is doing, not only to Jews, but to all of humanity and even the Palistinians he says his doctors in his country have treated.
If it is about humanity AND IT SHOULD BE, then don't make a theme park out of an entire country anymore than America should have it's name changed to "Jesusland".
Just have a state, like we do here in America where any Jew or Muslim or Atheist or Christian has the same right to compete in the open market or even run for our highest offices.
I see Isreal as the bigger person in this beef, but I still see a evolutionary tribalism that it refuses to face which is why they cannot understand what they do, while claiming to be non vilolent, is still a form of special status.
There can be no guest house on a planet of 7 billion when it is the only home any of us have. The traditions and boarders and pluralism will happen and no one is going to go away. But we cannot in our increasingly small world continue with the selfish narcisissm that a merel label makes us always better than someone else.
We are ultimatly as a species individuals first and as such a govenment must be based on that individualism by neutral concepts and common law.
I DO value a secular Isreal much like our Constitution says "freedom of religion" and "no religious test" in our oath of office. But that is not what they want. While Isreal is still more progressive when it comes to pluralism, it still has that same falacious attitude much like when a Christian here says "Christian Nation".
He went on to quote the 3,000 year history of Jews and used that same lame excuse of tradition and "we were here first".And he also envoked the Holcouast as an excuse to have a "Jewish state".
To all parties involved, Jew, Muslim and Christian I submit that it is precisely because your holy books claim certainty of a god claim, is all the more reason to give up on any governmental idea of a religious state. Our founders who were a variety of beleifs understood that setting up pecking orders based on religion, was a bad idea. Freedom of religion should be protected in all societies, but the laws and constitutions of any should not place special pleading to one god being more important than all others.
I cannot see peace comming from Palistinians setting up a Muslim state, nor can I see peace comming from Isreal having a "Jewish state", and no Muslim or Jew living in America, for example, would say "Sure put a cross on the capital dome because that represents me too.
A secular state that values pluralism and religious neutrality allowing all to particispate while not setting up religious litmus tests or implied pecking orders is the only thing that can ultimately bring civility.
The problem with this conflict is the same as it was with Catlholics and Prodestants in Isrland. The attitude that being special is important and not common law.
I find it sick and morally repugnant to the Jews that died horrible deaths in Europe's death camp, as a political proxy land grab. The Jews that suffered should not be a lesson that "Jews suffered" but a lesson to all humans that this is not how humans should treat each other.
No one in the west I find moral wants Jews to leave. But just like we in America admit a Christian majority, our founders have said that our laws themselves are not bible based,
"As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" Article 11 barbary treaty signed WITHOUT dissent by both houses of congress into law by President John Adams.
Not that this is the goal of either Muslims or Jews, IT SHOULD BE. But what both sides want in reality which will never bring peace, is peace through the submission of others. At best right now, both sides have well intended people who at best, might be willing to treat the minority as a house guest.
In America freedom of religion is not set up on the bible. Nor are any of the words in the Constitution. Freedom of religion depends on a secular government who does not make claims about who is more important than the other.
I am tired of the history of both sides in "poor me" and "I have suffered" and "I am intitled". Niether side has any evolutionary understanding that neither's god claims were arround 500.000 years ago. And just like both Muslims and Jews do not buy the claims of the Ancient Egyptians, they should be able to understand why a secular state is more suited for pluralism than a state based on any religion or any sect of a religion.
I defend the western style government and open market system Isreal has. But just like they don't like the theocracy of Iran, they should not be selling the idea of even "theocracy light" where they wont harm you, but have the official stance that Jews are more special than all others. If it makes no sense for a Muslim or a Christian to say "we are more special than Jews", then the hypocracy of insisting on that implication is astounding.
The fact remains on a planet of 7 billion and over a half million years of our species evolution, if we are to have peace, it cannot be based on tradtion or religion, but the common law that remains neutral on the issue and allows all to participate without making public proclimations of whose god is best in an official capacity.
Why do I criticise Isreal? Because it is still about 100 years in the past. Although the founders were ahead of their time, it has constantly taken ov over 200 years of the use of that Constitution for Catholic JFK to get ellected, and Muslim Keith Elleson ellected and atheist Pete Stark ellected.
I see no good for either Muslims or Jews decrying tradition when the secular west has proven that your tradition DOES NOT have to go away, but it owns no rights as to proclaiming assendency over others.
My challeng to both parties involved, not that either side will listen. If either side wants a lesson on what pluralism looks like, what E-plurabus unum looks like, and a neutral state that values freedom of religion looks like, America is a constant growing example of what inclusion looks like. But that would not have happend if the founders insisted on a Jesus based Constitution.
I support a secular Isreal but I will never support a Jewish state anymore than I find it credible to claim America is a Christian nation. No, it has had a history of a majority of Christians, yes. But neither the Consitution or the founders ever claimed that America was officially a Christian state.
When any group in human history, claims their suffering is special or unique, be they Muslim, or Jew, or black or gay or atheist, it is nothing but human narcissism at work.
There have been tribal wars long before our current major beefs between the big three. But when you look at the places where their is more diversity what you see is that the laws are not religious based, but common law rooted in the idea that one's citizenship is not based on a label.
I fear that what I write here will fall both on the def ears of Muslims and Jews, when what I see is unfortunate mundane evolutionary tribalism which DOES NOT have to divide them, but does, because both sides are living in a mythological past rather than look to the future in mutual equality and cooperation.
Now, when I listened to this speech, Ben mentioned the history of his religion and the heros of his religion, so to the secular Jews and or secular Isrealis I say it is utter bullshit to falsely claim a "Jewish state" is secular. No matter how much one might want to claim "we are not bloodthristy" it is still saying " I am more special than non Jews".
The fact remains on a plaent of 7 billion we have to face that no one is going anywhere and we only serve to divide each other by insisting government play favorites creating assendencies of one religion over another. If it is wrong for Muslims and Christians to attempt it, then it is just as wrong when Jews attempt it.
Pluralism and freedom of religion cannot be religious based. It can only exist under a common law that protects the rights of all citizens without limus tests.
I urge both Palistine and Isreal to seek, not religious states, but seperate states that have neutral goverments that protect the freedom and rights of all. Any talk of a "religious state" to me is nothing more than selfish narcissim that only serves to divide.
I am not special because I am an atheist myself, nor is any Muslim or Jew or Christian. The adittude towards pluralism can only grow when we don't seek to claim to be "special", but become individuals under the unique and posititive attitude that what we have in common is not our religions, but our common condition based on common law.
Now before any Isreali or Jew responds, I am being fair to you and I do not want to hear this all or nothing blind loyalty crap. There are lots of things I see postive about a secular Isreal as it currently is and know that there are secular Isrealis who want this to end as much as the rest of the world.
No matter what country or nation or religion we are talking about, we are all the same species and sometimes dwelling in the past serves neither any good in comming to gether in the only future all of humanity has.
I'be seen this conflict go on since I was a kid. And the only thing I see is mundane evolutionary tribalism based on ancient superstition, BOTH theirs and yours.
It is an unreasonable expectation for any group of people to give up on past traditions, so in that sense no one should ask Jews to go extinct. Christianity is still here in America despite no mention in the Constitution of Jesus or Christianity getting most favored status.
I am angry at Isreal's PM and the disservice he is doing, not only to Jews, but to all of humanity and even the Palistinians he says his doctors in his country have treated.
If it is about humanity AND IT SHOULD BE, then don't make a theme park out of an entire country anymore than America should have it's name changed to "Jesusland".
Just have a state, like we do here in America where any Jew or Muslim or Atheist or Christian has the same right to compete in the open market or even run for our highest offices.
I see Isreal as the bigger person in this beef, but I still see a evolutionary tribalism that it refuses to face which is why they cannot understand what they do, while claiming to be non vilolent, is still a form of special status.
There can be no guest house on a planet of 7 billion when it is the only home any of us have. The traditions and boarders and pluralism will happen and no one is going to go away. But we cannot in our increasingly small world continue with the selfish narcisissm that a merel label makes us always better than someone else.
We are ultimatly as a species individuals first and as such a govenment must be based on that individualism by neutral concepts and common law.
