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Intelligent design: could we do better?
#91
RE: Intelligent design: could we do better?
(October 12, 2012 at 12:54 am)Akincana Krishna dasa Wrote: Sure, take as long as you need. When you can figure out how to create at least a singled celled organism, maybe you can start to compare your intelligence to the dumb, natural processes of nature. Before then, I think we can at least be humble to the idea that there are - maybe "dumb, natural" - forces much smarter than us in the universe.

One could easily argue that we have already surpassed nature in certain design categories. I'll give one example.

Telescopes are built in the imitation of biological eyes, using lenses and sometimes reflective surfaces to focus light, whereupon it is processed as an image.

Biology has created examples that can see miles away. Humans have created examples which can see almost all the way across the known universe, using a vastly larger chunk of the light spectrum. Or, if one reverses the principles and applies it in the other direction, all the way down to nanoscopic distances.
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#92
RE: Intelligent design: could we do better?
(October 13, 2012 at 5:34 pm)Insanity x Wrote:
(October 13, 2012 at 4:13 pm)Godschild Wrote: You know those to be leg bones how? Did you ask the whale, I understand they have a language. A beautiful one at that.

This makes me think you think the whales are not only aware of this superfluous bone but actually are quite fond of it for some reason.

they are actually bones attached to muscles used for reproduction for female whales. the whole hip bone argument was debunked a long time ago and is no longer used by any credible biologists. only fundy atheists like yourself say it's hip bones still. what's next? Piltdown man? Haeckel’s drawings of embryos? please. do some research.
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

-4th verse of the american national anthem
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#93
RE: Intelligent design: could we do better?
Research done.

Probably the most well known case of atavism is found in the whales. According to the standard phylogenetic tree, whales are known to be the descendants of terrestrial mammals that had hindlimbs. Thus, we expect the possibility that rare mutant whales might occasionally develop atavistic hindlimbs. In fact, there are many cases where whales have been found with rudimentary atavistic hindlimbs in the wild (see Figure 2.2.1; for reviews see Berzin 1972, pp. 65-67 and Hall 1984, pp. 90-93). Hindlimbs have been found in baleen whales (Sleptsov 1939), humpback whales (Andrews 1921) and in many specimens of sperm whales (Abel 1908; Berzin 1972, p. 66; Nemoto 1963; Ogawa and Kamiya 1957; Zembskii and Berzin 1961). Most of these examples are of whales with femurs, tibia, and fibulae; however, some even include feet with complete digits.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson

God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers

Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders

Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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#94
RE: Intelligent design: could we do better?
(October 14, 2012 at 11:51 am)IATIA Wrote: Research done.

Probably the most well known case of atavism is found in the whales. According to the standard phylogenetic tree, whales are known to be the descendants of terrestrial mammals that had hindlimbs. Thus, we expect the possibility that rare mutant whales might occasionally develop atavistic hindlimbs. In fact, there are many cases where whales have been found with rudimentary atavistic hindlimbs in the wild (see Figure 2.2.1; for reviews see Berzin 1972, pp. 65-67 and Hall 1984, pp. 90-93). Hindlimbs have been found in baleen whales (Sleptsov 1939), humpback whales (Andrews 1921) and in many specimens of sperm whales (Abel 1908; Berzin 1972, p. 66; Nemoto 1963; Ogawa and Kamiya 1957; Zembskii and Berzin 1961). Most of these examples are of whales with femurs, tibia, and fibulae; however, some even include feet with complete digits.

i was confronting the picture that was brought up. your source agrees the picture is of the bones are as i described. your source brings up different evidence of a different example.
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

-4th verse of the american national anthem
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#95
RE: Intelligent design: could we do better?



I think probably the perfect example of a vestigial organ would have to be the brain in Christians, Krishnas, and other Creotards.


[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]
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#96
RE: Intelligent design: could we do better?
"Nothing can be imagined more useless to the animal than rudiments of hind legs entirely buried beneath the skin of a whale, so that one is inclined to suspect that these structures must admit of some other interpretation. Yet, approaching the inquiry with the most skeptical determination, one cannot help being convinced, as the dissection goes on, that these rudiments [in the Right Whale] really are femur and tibia. The synovial capsule representing the knee-joint was too evident to be overlooked. An acetabular cartilage, synovial cavity, and head of femur, together represent the hip-joint. Attached to this femur is an apparatus of constant and strong ligaments, permitting and restraining movements in certain directions; and muscles are present, some passing to the femur from distant parts, some proceeding immediately from the pelvic bone to the femur, by which movements of the thigh-bone are performed; and these ligaments and muscles present abundant instances of exact and interesting adaptation. But the movements of the femur are extremely limited, and in two of these whales the hip-joint as firmly anchylosed, in one of them on one side, in the other on both sides, without trace of disease, showing that these movements may be dispensed with. The function point of view fails to account for the presence of a femur in addition to processes from the pelvic bone. Altogether, these hind legs in this whale present for contemplation a most interesting instance of those significant parts in an animal -- rudimentary structures." [Struthers, p. 142-143]



This prediction is not falsified by finding a complex or essential function for the presumed vestigial structure. Should data of this sort be found, the structure merely becomes an example of parahomology (considered in prediction 3.1) or, more likely, an example of inefficient design (considered in prediction 3.5). Observations that would be truly inconsistent with the concept of vestigiality are given above. More detailed and specific explanations of how to demonstrate that the human appendix is not vestigial are given in the Vestigiality of the human vermiform appendix FAQ.

Many anti-evolutionist authors have erroneously concluded that vestigial structures do not exist. They reason that either (1) vestigial organs are actually functional or (2) it is theoretically impossible to demonstrate that a structure has no function (for example, see Ham et al. 1990; Batten and Sarfati 2003; Bergman and Howe 1990; Morris 1986). This latter argument is based upon the false premise that negative results are used to demonstrate a lack of function, and that negative evidence is unscientific. These arguments are faulty for three reasons, each discussed below.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson

God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers

Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders

Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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#97
RE: Intelligent design: could we do better?
(October 14, 2012 at 12:04 pm)apophenia Wrote:


I think probably the perfect example of a vestigial organ would have to be the brain in Christians, Krishnas, and other Creotards.



It is not vestigial. It plays a vital role in actively disrupting their hormonal balance.
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#98
RE: Intelligent design: could we do better?
(October 13, 2012 at 5:19 pm)whateverist Wrote:
(October 13, 2012 at 4:13 pm)Godschild Wrote: You know those to be leg bones how? Did you ask the whale, I understand they have a language. A beautiful one at that.

Good point. Those could be vestigal wing bones from when all whales were still starlings. Or maybe its his boner bone. Why don't you ask god for us and ask him directly, what he had in mind with that bit? Or do you think he'll be mad at you for opening up his critters and studying its bones?

I know some whales have no boner bone, and would suspect all whales do not, but could not say for sure.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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