Human Value Nonexistent?

[Utracia]

We make our own meaning I mean. Simple to me. I am baffled at those who seem to think that without some supernatural having some plan for us all that everything is pointless. Make your own life and make your own meaning. One doesn't need an invisible hand to guide them.

Saddam Hussain made his own meaning to be a Tyrant. He made his own meaning. Having your own meaning doesn't mean anything. For you to say it's a significant meaning, you have to justify it. But all our perceptions of how to live very well maybe myth based. It maybe a myth that there is such a thing as praise. Maybe all actions are not praiseworthy. There is no explanation from naturalism why an action is praiseworthy.

The struggle for justice is not proven to be meaningful from naturalism perspective. In fact, it seems meaningless.

It's like Dawkins said. There is no right or wrong. No morals. No meaning. Nothing.

Are you sure you want to kill religion? Perhaps we should strive to make a fake Prophet with the coolest myth ever (I'm kidding)

Ahem. We can all agree on right and wrong, there is a reason why we all condemn people like Saddam. Don't need a Holy Book to come to that conclusion. Though I suppose some are good at excusing their behavior.

Need to go watch the Hitch demolishing those who blame Hitler/Stalin on atheism, great stuff

[Mystic]

"nothing is true, everything is permitted"- Assassins creed.

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Ahem. We can all agree on right and wrong, there is a reason why we all condemn people like Saddam.

We can all agree on right and wrong? It seems to be the case that we can't

All condemn Saddam? You should've seen the people on ummah.com forums when he died all praying for God to have mercy on his soul.

Don't need a Holy Book to come to that conclusion. Though I suppose some are good at excusing their behavior.

No but perhaps we constantly need myths. In the same way bats sing and they feel the need to. We might of needed to incline to myths. Over time, some foundational beliefs developed. For example, we value family because it works a lot. We love our parents and respect them more, because it worked.

We don't know if it's right or wrong or if there is such a thing.

Need to go watch the Hitch demolishing those who blame Hitler/Stalin on atheism, great stuff

Truth might destroy us. Myth/religion might save us.

[IATIA]

Ahem. We can all agree on right and wrong, there is a reason why we all condemn people like Saddam

Sorry, no gold here. Right and wrong is subjective. Suddam's followers had no issues with him. The 'alleged' perpetrators of 9/11 thought they were right. Just read the bible for other examples of subjective right and wrong.

[festive1]

Admiration requires belief in praise. And you are judging your husband. And you believe in your judgment.

I can also make the counter argument that he is an insensitive git at times. The key is to weigh both and come to one's own conclusions.

Our human nature is human nature. We embrace it, but it might be founded on delusions.

But those delusions are still helpful sometimes. I think the ultimate goal is to strip away all delusions, though few every attain that level of "enlightenment," if you will.

And we never reasoned them in cold hard logica way. It was all gut instinct that conformed to those morals.

Ah, our lizard brains... Instinct is not a bad thing, often it is very, very good. I reason with my lizard brain when I react from my PTSD. It can be untrained and rationalized.

Even our concept of self can be a delusion.

Nay. I say, our concept of self is our ultimate delusion. The self is divided into many parts that our brains rationalize and pull together to form a cohesive identity. Those of us with mental health issues often have varying degrees of difficulty with this process. What I fear most, is the "normal" person. I mistrust them. We all have our bad side. Just because someone is a great actor and can project a strong, cohesive self, to me, shows how divided they must be internally.

[Utracia]

Ahem. We can all agree on right and wrong, there is a reason why we all condemn people like Saddam

Sorry, no gold here. Right and wrong is subjective. Suddam's followers had no issues with him. The 'alleged' perpetrators of 9/11 thought they were right. Just read the bible for other examples of subjective right and wrong.

Because we need to slowly build a consensus as to what is acceptable behavior, some places in the world are further along than others is all. Can't expect us all to get it right immediately. We're getting there though.

[Mystic]

I can also make the counter argument that he is an insensitive git at times. The key is to weigh both and come to one's own conclusions.

Weight implies you can measure actions or a person. We believe in that, because without, we wouldn't be able to function as humans. Try as you might, you can't get let go of the belief of a soul. You don't acknowledge a soul intellectually, but you act as if there is.

From naturalism prespective, no one is the same person as they were before. They constantly change, and that means the death of the past of them. There is no perpetual identity.

Is it even possible to praise a person for who they have become without belief in soul :p Yes it is, but it's based on perception of a soul, even if it's not recognized.

We assume the child will grow up, and that child will be an adult. We don't assume the child is dead, and the adult is another person from that child.


Suratal Fatiha takes a genius to write.

First thing it reminds you of is name of God, along with Compassion, and Mercy. (Attraction number 1)

Praise (attraction number 2) belongs to God (justification) (attraction number 3)
Master of day of judgment (you will get to know yourself exactly as you are with objective view of yourself and be rewarded exactly for who you are) (Attraction 3)
Thee do we Worship Thee do We ask for Help (higher purpose, higher greatness existing) (attraction number 4)
Guide us upon the straight path (there is one way to live, and God wil show you that way) (attraction number 5)


What do you think an emotional being would pick?

No justification for praise. No way to know he is not deluded. No way to know he is living with objective maning.

Not knowing there is an objective measurement to who he is.

Religion is attractive. Atheism isn't It's a harsh truth.

But those delusions are still helpful sometimes. I think the ultimate goal is to strip away all delusions, though few every attain that level of "enlightenment," if you will.

What ultimate goal? From who, from where?

You really want to know none of your actions are praiseworthy.

The ultimate enlightenment we are programmed to believe, is to believe in an ultimate praiseworthy being, and that we are ascending towards him, and all the nasty evils in this world, is to bring about "praiseworthy" character.

Only that it's an illogical paradoxical concept

Ah, our lizard brains... Instinct is not a bad thing, often it is very, very good. I reason with my lizard brain when I react from my PTSD. It can be untrained and rationalized.

What is "good"? From what perspective. What if we evolved in a different way. What if we evolved without instinct reliance, but more thinking reliance.

Perhaps the happiest and better way of life is ignorant animals that don't need to think about all these complicated things we need to think about.

Nay. I say, our concept of self is our ultimate delusion. The self is divided into many parts that our brains rationalize and pull together to form a cohesive identity. Those of us with mental health issues often have varying degrees of difficulty with this process. What I fear most, is the "normal" person. I mistrust them. We all have our bad side. Just because someone is a great actor and can project a strong, cohesive self, to me, shows how divided they must be internally.

What bad side? Is there a bad side? Perhaps a depressing side...perhaps a disliked side...but a bad? Again, this perhaps is all inherited from myth based.


There maybe no praise, greatness, goodness, beauty to the self. IF there is no soul, perhaps it's impossible. Perhaps this is why most humans cannot but help believe in a soul or that it came together (belief in morals and soul) in evolution of our species.

[festive1]

Weight implies you can measure actions or a person. We believe in that, because without, we wouldn't be able to function as humans. Try as you might, you can't get let go of the belief of a soul. You don't acknowledge a soul intellectually, but you act as if there is.

Soul isn't the word I'd use. A personal essence, if you will. Soul implies a life beyond this one, which I don't believe exists.

We assume the child will grow up, and that child will be an adult. We don't assume the child is dead, and the adult is another person from that child.

Not another person, a palimpsest. Like a pearl. We begin life as a grain of sand, in terms of personality and identity. Then as we gain experience, we also grow, much like that grain of sand inside an oyster. Layer upon layer, until you get what you are at any given time. One cannot run from their past, one always carries the past with them.

Suratal Fatiha takes a genius to write.
First thing it reminds you of is name of God, along with Compassion, and Mercy. (Attraction number 1)
Praise (attraction number 2) belongs to God (justification) (attraction number 3)
Master of day of judgment (you will get to know yourself exactly as you are with objective view of yourself and be rewarded exactly for who you are) (Attraction 3)
Thee do we Worship Thee do We ask for Help (higher purpose, higher greatness existing) (attraction number 4)
Guide us upon the straight path (there is one way to live, and God wil show you that way) (attraction number 5)

I'd say that compassion and mercy are within human experience, not attributable to a deity. To have compassion and mercy for others, especially those who have harmed us, is a secular form of divinity. I reject #2 and #3, because I believe we can only praise ourselves. That wholeness, is attributable to a firm belief in self as human, flaws and good. #4, for me, is all about accepting that life and what happens to us are things beyond our control, not a deity. Giving up and simply accepting will carry one a long way. #5 is one's internal, moral compass, based in one's experience.

What do you think an emotional being would pick?
No justification for praise. No way to know he is not deluded. No way to know he is living with objective maning.
Not knowing there is an objective measurement to who he is.
Religion is attractive. Atheism isn't It's a harsh truth.

I never said religion wasn't attractive. And I agree atheism doesn't provide the comforts of religion. I'm a human. Humans, for the most part, need some sort of delusion, in varying degrees. Nothing is (in emotional terms anyway) 100% objective. It's all based in the individual experience, which is inherently subjective. I think an example would be helpful here. I recently took a statistics class, and got an A. When my mother heard that I received such a score, she said, "I'm surprised, you were never very good at math." In fact, I made top scores in math throughout school, and was in honors courses throughout junior high and high school, and was even awarded for my performance in math by my state's governor. She is deluding herself, amending history. It's not the fact that she's deluding herself I find painful, it's the why behind it. Because the why holds her judgement. The why holds the reasoning behind the delusion. It's a delusion that I can't take a part in. From which comes separation and pain. One can only hold onto oneself, and truth, and forge ahead. It is separation of self that causes the ultimate pain. When the self is too divided, that is when serious problems arise. I feel I am doing a bad job of explaining myself here, but for what it's worth there it is.

What ultimate goal? From who, from where?
You really want to know none of your actions are praiseworthy.
The ultimate enlightenment we are programmed to believe, is to believe in an ultimate praiseworthy being, and that we are ascending towards him, and all the nasty evils in this world, is to bring about "praiseworthy" character.
Only that it's an illogical paradoxical concept

The only being we accept praise from is our own self. If others give us praise and we believe them to be false, we don't truly accept the praise. Instead, we question the praise or discard it.

What is "good"? From what perspective. What if we evolved in a different way. What if we evolved without instinct reliance, but more thinking reliance.
Perhaps the happiest and better way of life is ignorant animals that don't need to think about all these complicated things we need to think about.

But we didn't evolve a different way. To ponder such questions is of little consequence. The only thing that matters is here and now. Reality, as it is. Acceptance.

What bad side? Is there a bad side? Perhaps a depressing side...perhaps a disliked side...but a bad? Again, this perhaps is all inherited from myth based.

Ah, here you cut deep (I'm not wounded, and if I didn't want to discuss this with you I wouldn't). Personally, my "bad side" wants me dead. It is my capacity for self harm and belief that I am worthless. Yes, this is bad. Because it is false. I am not worthless. I have value to my loved ones and to myself. My body will die, I will cease to exist, but I will be remembered. Therefore, I am not worthless.

There maybe no praise, greatness, goodness, beauty to the self. IF there is no soul, perhaps it's impossible. Perhaps this is why most humans cannot but help believe in a soul or that it came together (belief in morals and soul) in evolution of our species.

The only praise humans accept is that which they truly believe they deserve. False praise is rejected. This is a very complex subject, I don't believe in an enduring, eternal soul. I think our intelligence forces us to make things far more complex than what they are in an attempt to make sense of it all.

[Mystic]

Festive1, you are a true human. And I appreciate you sticking to the gut instinct.

We have to hold on to some beliefs, whether they be delusions or not.

Belief in praise is such a belief. It's in our nature to accept it. Whether it is justified or not, is another argument.

Personally I can't let go of inclination that I am a perpetual soul. It maybe a delusion but it seems true, in the same way, praise seems true.

Agnostic confusion is confusing. I don't know what I know and I don't believe in what I believe, if that even makes sense

I am hoping I do attain certainty though and sort out what I know from what I don't.

[festive1]

There is no certainty, only truth. But one person's truth varies from another's.

[KichigaiNeko]

Have to agree with festive Mystic. There is no certainty. I feel that the "truth" you are looking for will never be found.

The only thing that matters is here and now. Reality, as it is. Acceptance.