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RE: Human Value Nonexistent?
November 1, 2012 at 2:01 am
(November 1, 2012 at 1:02 am)genkaus Wrote: (October 31, 2012 at 1:36 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: True enough. But there even being a such thing as praise is not proven.
Of course it is. The same way it is proven that there is such a thing as measurement.
I am not sure if this was a facetious statement or not, so please excuse this remark if it was.
Measurement is not proven. It is established and refined.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
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RE: Human Value Nonexistent?
November 1, 2012 at 5:59 am
(October 31, 2012 at 8:02 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Someone praises us, we then like the idea, but then think about how much it's true about us. Someone insults us, we get hurt, but then have our own self-perception, if they are right about us. We believe there is an objective judgment to who we are. Even if we don't know it ourselves.
Not necessarily. There are some of us who, like myself, believe that there is a subjective judgement on the matter. And yet I, and those like myself, still care about subjective judgements because subjectivity does actually exist by the way - I know I'm conscious for example, and my consciousness is subjective.
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RE: Human Value Nonexistent?
November 4, 2012 at 9:27 pm
I'm reading a book at the moment (A Very Short Introduction to Romanticism) and one of the beliefs of the romantic poets was that the human sense of good, bad, beauty, value etc. was not a rational or intellectual conviction but an emotional one. The romantics seemed to view this as making those ideals even more worthwhile an "pure" in some way. So I think I can agree with that: Morals and meaning are not intellectual and they don't need to be.
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RE: Human Value Nonexistent?
November 5, 2012 at 12:47 am
(November 4, 2012 at 9:27 pm)Prometheus_Unbound Wrote: I'm reading a book at the moment (A Very Short Introduction to Romanticism) and one of the beliefs of the romantic poets was that the human sense of good, bad, beauty, value etc. was not a rational or intellectual conviction but an emotional one. The romantics seemed to view this as making those ideals even more worthwhile an "pure" in some way. So I think I can agree with that: Morals and meaning are not intellectual and they don't need to be.
Care to justify that?
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RE: Human Value Nonexistent?
November 5, 2012 at 5:51 pm
(This post was last modified: November 5, 2012 at 5:52 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
I don't think that the premises for morality can be rational, but all the arguments and conclusions that follow from those premises, can.
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RE: Human Value Nonexistent?
November 6, 2012 at 12:25 am
(November 5, 2012 at 5:51 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: I don't think that the premises for morality can be rational, but all the arguments and conclusions that follow from those premises, can.
So, for you, morality must always be inherently irrational?
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RE: Human Value Nonexistent?
November 6, 2012 at 5:59 am
Well, I guess that depends whether you think our intuitions that tell us that suffering is bad, for example, can really be "rational" despite the fact that its basis is emotional and, in many cases - thankfully - empathetic.
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RE: Human Value Nonexistent?
November 10, 2012 at 8:00 am
(October 17, 2012 at 7:45 am)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: Richard Dawkins’ assessment of human worth may be depressing, but why, on atheism, is he mistaken, when he says, “there is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pointless indifference. . . . We are machines for propagating DNA. . . . It is every living object’s sole reason for being”?
Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: a Darwinian View of Life (New York: Basic Books, 1996), p. 133 and Richard Dawkins, “The Ultraviolet Garden,” Lecture 4 of 7 Royal Institution Christmas Lectures (1992)
There are a few things that bother me Jeff.
No religious person should ever call themselves reasonable ..
Then there is the matter of a believer coming on an atheist forum to have his ass handed to him time and time again, do you like to be humiliated Jeff, i know some ppl who do.
You probably think you're some sort of provocateur extraordinaire but when all is said and done you're just a bit of a sad not to bright human being.
About every 3 seconds a young child dies in Africa because it didn't get proper nutrition and his/her parents didn't have access to clean water.
We have the money and knowledge to fix that but what do we do .. almost nothing because we don't really care.
This is just one simple example of how enlightened we are as a species.
And you have the audacity to talk about human values .....
Be ashamed Jeff, be very ashamed ...
"Jesus is like an unpaid babysitter "
R. Gervais
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RE: Human Value Nonexistent?
November 11, 2012 at 11:38 am
(November 6, 2012 at 12:25 am)genkaus Wrote: (November 5, 2012 at 5:51 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: I don't think that the premises for morality can be rational, but all the arguments and conclusions that follow from those premises, can.
So, for you, morality must always be inherently irrational?
If one considers anything that is not rational must be irrational, then yes.
Morality is a subjective point of view that cannot be itemized through logic and reasoning. Morality is always subject to the "opinions" of society and therefore, by definition, it can never be objective.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Human Value Nonexistent?
November 12, 2012 at 8:23 am
(November 11, 2012 at 11:38 am)IATIA Wrote: If one considers anything that is not rational must be irrational, then yes.
Is there a third option?
(November 11, 2012 at 11:38 am)IATIA Wrote: Morality is a subjective point of view that cannot be itemized through logic and reasoning. Morality is always subject to the "opinions" of society and therefore, by definition, it can never be objective.
1. There is a distinction between objective and rational.
2. Morality can be, but is not necessarily, the society's or a person's "opinion" - thus, there is no reason why it cannot and should not be subject to logic and reasoning.
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