Prayer Death

[Pippy]

Perhaps you can't handle it when I disagree with you

But you've mostly diagreed with me. I enjoy your posts, but it seems the last was a little more disrespectful and silly. I have tried to make it known that I feel no need or ability to prove god to you guys. I can't. You should try to prove not-god to me. you can't. So I try to leave it as unknown, and especially not be rude and petty in bringing up that I think there is undoubtedly god. It is an unresolved argument that I don't want to be part of. The argument about the existence of god. So if you take not-god as a given and use it to call me out, then I feel like I should just use god as a given in response. It is a stalemate, so I try to avoid it. I prefer it when you disagree, it shows thinking for yourself.

Ok, then where is 'she'?

If you're gonna bring out that dead horse, then I choose to respond with the terrible "everywhere".

My beef is not with Christians but with Christianity. I respect individuals but not beliefs. Beliefs are not something to 'respect'

I too have beef with Christianity, so why are we arguing? I respect individuals (subjects) and not as much beliefs (objects)... But remembering that I feel Atheism to be a belief, how am I to interpret your acting that your belief is undeniable, and my belief is unrespectable? If you have beef with Christians, I suggest you find one.

How have I been disrespectful in anyway?

No, it's just that I hold you to a higher standard. I have had some very enjoyable and enlightening conversation with you, likely more than any one else here. So to see you fall in the kindergarten traps of arguing is saddening. You used to be more polite, and that made your arguments and points much stronger.

Thank you, hopefully we can clear this up.
-Pip

[Edwardo Piet]

But you've mostly diagreed with me. I enjoy your posts, but it seems the last was a little more disrespectful and silly.

I don't see where or how?

I have tried to make it known that I feel no need or ability to prove god to you guys. I can't. You should try to prove not-god to me.

No because the burde nof proof isn't on me unless I claim a positve belief that God isn't so, or in other words, that I 'know' he doesn't exist somehow.

Ok, then where is 'she'?

If you're gonna bring out that dead horse, then I choose to respond with the terrible "everywhere"

So 'everywhere'=God? So what are you describing that isn't just Nature that I myself believe in as an atheist?

I too have beef with Christianity, so why are we arguing?

I am asking as to why you believe prayer works. And how it can possibily work outside the placebo effect, if God almost certainly doesn't exist?

There is no evidence for God, and God is highly complex, so God is highly improbable. If this is the case, I wonder how prayer can work outside the placebo effect? And if you disagree, I wish to know why.

But remembering that I feel Atheism to be a belief,

It's only a 'belief' if it's a 'postive belief', in sense, not a disbelief. If I claim to absolutely know God doesn't exist, then it's a belief. Otherwise it's just a disbelief, a rejectiion because I'm unconvinced, and I don't actually claim the absolute.

Because if you can say any disbeliefs are beliefs and that they require just as much evidence as positive beliefs before either side has been substantiated...then you and I require evidence that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist otherwise it's to be considered equally probable as it is improbable!

This logic does not follow. Untill a positive belief has evidence first, it is more rational to be on the negative side of belief - to disbelieve; or in other words...to not believe - it's the opposite of belief...it's...not believing, it's not belief.

how am I to interpret your acting that your belief is undeniable

I don't have an undeniable 'belief'. My belief is a disbelief, a negative. I don't claim to absolutely know that God doesn't exist. As I said he almost certainly doesn't exist.

and my belief is unrespectable?

I don't see why I should respect belief in things that are so highly improbable and bizarre. If someone believes in Santa Claus when they're an adult, that's highly probable and bizarre, and not exactly to be respected.

And if a belief is valid, it doesn't need respect! Beliefs are not something to be 'respected' in either case.

If you have beef with Christians, I suggest you find one.

There's some on these forums. As I said, I don't have a beef with Christians. But with Christianity. I don't have a problem with individuals. But with their beliefs.

You're not a Christian but you still believe in God(s), and I find that curious and I ask questions about it. You're on atheist forums here, and you believe in God - I'm going to ask you about it, considering I'm interested in what everyone believes/disbelieves.

And along with Christians or anybody else for that matter, I see no reason to respect your 'beliefs', I question them.

No, it's just that I hold you to a higher standard. I have had some very enjoyable and enlightening conversation with you, likely more than any one else here. So to see you fall in the kindergarten traps of arguing is saddening. You used to be more polite, and that made your arguments and points much stronger.

I think that's just because I was trying to know more about you and what you believe when you first joined. I still care just as much, it's just now I know more about your beliefs so I know what to question.

And I am still yet to see you point out where I've been 'disrespectful'. And sorry if you feel I've been impolite but - once again, I don't see that either. Where have I been 'impolite'?

Thank you, hopefully we can clear this up.

I hope so too.

EvF

[Minimalist]

Thank you Bozo for demonstrating the very least power prayer can hold. That does not make is literally useless anymore does it? I could try to take it much further, but yeah, feel better. Good enough.

Best expressed as.............

[dry land fish]

This thread is about the prayer death.
Is it morally right in the eyes of a Christian for a parent to pray to God to cure their child of sickness instead of taking them to a doctor? Is that right? If the answer is yes then it completely contradicts what Jesus Christ preached. Jesus was not anti medicine or anti science. I seriously doubt Jesus would have said "yes let that child die if it's Gods will instead of give them medicine to SAVE THEIR LIFE". As a parent we will do anything for our child. If I were a Christian and I truly believed in God I'd actually sell my soul to Satan if it meant saving my childs life. Those people were absolutely insane and deserve to be pounded in the butt by some guy named "big bubba" in prison.

Pippy if you are not one of those fanatical Christians then why are you here to argue with us? I doubt anyone on this forum cares what kind of Christian you are unless you are a crazy one. I'm not going to try to argue with you about whether there is a god or not if that is why you are here. I am going to state that prayer doesn't work because there's no scientific evidence it does and you can argue all you want but unless you can prove that it works and prove it in such a way it can be duplicated in a laboratory by a scientist then you have nothing. BTW suicide bombers are a big issue in religion. They kill because of religion. I don't just dislike the violence in Christianity but I dislike the violence in all religions. Religion breeds wars and violence and it can make people do horrible things in the name of their God. For the good of human kind I wish there were no religions.

[Pippy]

Hey again,

Lets continue, and I will try to stay more on topic.

If the answer is yes then it completely contradicts what Jesus Christ preached.

Very true. One of my big annoyances is the Christians who live a life that seems to be very much against their own rules. I like a lot of the teachings of Jesus, very good advice mostly. But the rich men not getting into heaven, turn the other cheek? They fail very much at doing what their son-of-god told them too. Not all of them though... But I agree.

Those people were absolutely insane and deserve to be pounded in the butt by some guy named "big bubba" in prison.

Man, you've got a colourful tounge! Not a bad thing though. I also am on board for hating on the parents who lost thier child, that wasn't what I was arguing.

I doubt anyone on this forum cares what kind of Christian you are unless you are a crazy one.

I am not a crazy one, I am not even christian at all. I like the gnostic books and theologies though VERY interesting. And like I said, Jesus had some good parables.

I'm not going to try to argue with you about whether there is a god or not if that is why you are here.

I'm so pleased! I also don't want to argue about whether or not there is a god, but it seems to come up often. I just want to discuss other things, that is why I am here.

I am going to state that prayer doesn't work

May be we are talking about two different things then...

BTW suicide bombers are a big issue in religion. They kill because of religion.

This might lead to a thread hijack, but I thought you might say that. If I may, I disagree. Is it possible to have a secular suicide bomber? Sure. Is it possible to be religious, even very religious, and not feel the drive to be a suicide bomber? Sure. I think a suicide bomber is someone with no hope, no life and overwhelming hatred. Usually they have no hope and no life because some country or government took it from them, and that is where their hatred comes from. I do not support what they do, but instead am trying to think of a way to stop the phenomenon from happening. To see them as people, however sad, weak, and failing. I think suicide bombers are made. I think the "war on terror" is just the thing that makes them. Look at Chechnya for a case study.

do horrible things in the name of their God.

Yes, but do you overlook the beauty? There, like anything, is at least two sides.

For the good of human kind I wish there were no religions.

I am in agreement here as well.

Thank you for sharing. I apologize if I came across meaner than I meant. It's been a long week, and I will try to be more of a gentleman. Thanks again.

-Pip

[Kyuuketsuki]

BTW suicide bombers are a big issue in religion. They kill because of religion.

This might lead to a thread hijack, but I thought you might say that. If I may, I disagree. Is it possible to have a secular suicide bomber? Sure. Is it possible to be religious, even very religious, and not feel the drive to be a suicide bomber? Sure. I think a suicide bomber is someone with no hope, no life and overwhelming hatred. Usually they have no hope and no life because some country or government took it from them, and that is where their hatred comes from. I do not support what they do, but instead am trying to think of a way to stop the phenomenon from happening. To see them as people, however sad, weak, and failing. I think suicide bombers are made. I think the "war on terror" is just the thing that makes them. Look at Chechnya for a case study.

The thing is you don't tend to get secular terrorists unless they are following an ideology and even then they don't tend to be of the suicide variety ... that's pretty much an exclusively religious and/or insane variety of terrorist.

Furthermore I don't think you are correct in your generalisation about suicide bombers being because of some country or government ... seems to me the primary motivation is religion and reward.

Kyu

[Edwardo Piet]

I think that it's probably got something to do with the fact that....

...what makes you less scared, of killing yourself for such an act (and most motivated to) than not only believing with utmost "Faith" that you will survive it and be reborn...but that you'll also go to Heaven for it, and a Martyr's Heaven in particular where, what you did is 'the righteous thing'?!

Religion seems to be pretty much exclusive when it comes to believing (and so strongly so) that you will go to heaven for such acts, and that it's righteous to do so.

EvF

[binny]

Let's stop arguing and let us all pray Seriously, at least the state of Wisconsin has some sense. This just happened in Oregon and the mom got off completely and the dad got a slap on the wrist. He got sentenced last week, I think it was, and only got 60 days in jail with probation, I forgot for how long. The child is dead and he will go right on praying for more of his sick children. These parents are completely delusional. Yes sometimes we get sick and we get better without medical treatment, like a slight cold will go away, but most of us do get some kind of cold medicine to help out until it goes away. These people think the cold went away because they prayed it away. Insane thinking. This is child neglect and abuse plane and simple.

[Minimalist]

These praying jackasses always remind me of this joke.

A devout Christian heard an urgent news report on his radio that a flash flood was within minutes of entering the peaceful valley where he lived. Immediately he went to his knees and prayed for safety. The words were still on his lips when he became aware that water was gushing under his door. He retreated to the second floor and finally onto the roof of his house.
While he sat on the roof, a helicopter flew by and the pilot asked over the loudspeaker if they could lift him off. "It's not necessary since I have the Lord's protection," he replied.
Moments later the house began to break up and he found himself clinging to a tree. A police boat, braving the waters, approached him for rescue, but he assured them that the Lord would save him. Finally, the tree gave way and the man went to his death.
Standing before the Lord, he asked, "Lord, I'm glad to be here, but why didn't You answer my prayer for safety?"
The Lord responded, "Son, I told you over the radio to get out of there Then I sent you a helicopter and a motor boat!

Best summed up as the old dictum "God helps those who help themselves." Oddly, that works with or without any "god."

[dry land fish]

I wonder what would happen if someone sucked water into their lungs and instead of giving them CPR people just gathered around and prayed. I wonder how long it would take them to die?

---

These praying jackasses always remind me of this joke.

A devout Christian heard an urgent news report on his radio that a flash flood was within minutes of entering the peaceful valley where he lived. Immediately he went to his knees and prayed for safety. The words were still on his lips when he became aware that water was gushing under his door. He retreated to the second floor and finally onto the roof of his house.
While he sat on the roof, a helicopter flew by and the pilot asked over the loudspeaker if they could lift him off. "It's not necessary since I have the Lord's protection," he replied.
Moments later the house began to break up and he found himself clinging to a tree. A police boat, braving the waters, approached him for rescue, but he assured them that the Lord would save him. Finally, the tree gave way and the man went to his death.
Standing before the Lord, he asked, "Lord, I'm glad to be here, but why didn't You answer my prayer for safety?"
The Lord responded, "Son, I told you over the radio to get out of there Then I sent you a helicopter and a motor boat!

Best summed up as the old dictum "God helps those who help themselves." Oddly, that works with or without any "god."

Yeah haha. They made up the saying and they don't even get it.