Without citing the bible, what marks the bible as the one book with God's message?

[Whateverist]

Once again you haven't come close to answering the question. Or perhaps you are still answering the first question. Is English a second language for you? You strike me as highly defensive. If conversing with someone who doesn't already reinforce your belief system is so painful for you, please, don't bother.

If you ask a vague question, well you-know....!

And "no" I'm not defensive at all. Just being sarcastic.

It's continually amusing how "we" as christians have no creative freedom...yet our oppo-counterparts have free-roam in any direction they would take!

You asked what makes the bible special? Well...DUH!

Secondly (w/o using exact wording, and if I'm understanding you correctly) you asked what makes it that way w/o using bible quotes?

And I said that "it" is still being fought over and argued about after roughly 2000 years!

What other text is being fought over?! Legit question??

As an unbeliever I would expect you to use whatever means necessary to refute the Holy Bible.... as an intelligent (assumption here) person, I would expect a reply to that unique analogy.

So...I'll assume that you are indeed an "unbeliever", and choosing that route.

To clarify yes I am an unbeliever and an atheist, as I assume you are also. I simply believe in one less god than you do. But I am not out to part Christians from their faith. I also don't fault them for believing what I don't believe. I don't think that it is possible to live a life free of beliefs that are not based on evidence. I do it too, just not where gods are concerned.

And no, I'm not concerned with refuting the bible. I imagine there is some value there but I don't personally believe any of the references to divinity or the supernatural - mostly because I find both of those concepts vapid and absurd. My real reason for asking about the bible is I see it as a handicap to Christians who read it in a literal way. So many people use it to create an illusion of certainty when that is never really possible. Believe what you like but I'd have more respect for you if you could acknowledge what you believe without the false certainty provided by the bible.

I'm first and foremost an agnostic because I don't have a clue what the fuck a god could be. I'm a defacto atheist because I obviously can't entertain any belief in something I've not only never experienced but something I find it very hard to even make any sense of. I'm not as invested in being an atheist as I am in being straight with myself about what I do and don't have good reason to believe.

Let me ask you a new question. Do you think it is possible to be a Christian without believing every word and deed described in the bible happened exactly as written? Could a person be a Christian and remain agnostic about the true meaning and origins of the bible? I think so but then I'm not sure you'd still consider them a Christian.

[ronedee]

[quote='ronedee' pid='381286' dateline='1357331625']

So...I'll assume that you are indeed an "unbeliever", and choosing that route.

To clarify yes I am an unbeliever and an atheist, as I assume you are also. I simply believe in one less god than you do. But I am not out to part Christians from their faith. I also don't fault them for believing what I don't believe. I don't think that it is possible to live a life free of beliefs that are not based on evidence. I do it too, just not where gods are concerned.

You sound more like an agnostic. My younger brother is, and has the same view... My dad on the other hand is an atheist, and thinks that "possibly" extraterrestrials dropped us here! He's always in a state of flux on the subject of creation!

It's interesting that "all" atheists have a different POV about their non-belief, and want to protect themselves and others from religion. While agnostics sound mostly like libertarians.

And no, I'm not concerned with refuting the bible. I imagine there is some value there but I don't personally believe any of the references to divinity or the supernatural - mostly because I find both of those concepts vapid and absurd. My real reason for asking about the bible is I see it as a handicap to Christians who read it in a literal way. So many people use it to create an illusion of certainty when that is never really possible. Believe what you like but I'd have more respect for you if you could acknowledge what you believe without the false certainty provided by the bible.

There is a lot of assuming on your part here! So....lets keep it going!

Just as you can believe in physical science that is only theory, or w/o solid proof.... So can I. You would say there is visible evidence of these things. But I would say why can't God be responsible for these things, being there is no apparent proof of either! Just because you see the result of something that can't be completely explained doesn't justify the means by which it is explained.

Really now..... what is the difference between us? I believe that God is the reason...or "means" to life explained (THE WORD OF GOD) in the bible! Whereas you are willing to trust in the "theory of things" written by men in books.

...and men have been proven wrong over and over again!! God on the other hand? I can't think of one instance....unless of course you believe He has let men down! But then.... why would a God be serving man?

I'm first and foremost an agnostic because I don't have a clue what the fuck a god could be. I'm a defacto atheist because I obviously can't entertain any belief in something I've not only never experienced but something I find it very hard to even make any sense of. I'm not as invested in being an atheist as I am in being straight with myself about what I do and don't have good reason to believe.

At least you are honest about your thoughts and feelings! That is refreshing around here!!

Let me ask you a new question. Do you think it is possible to be a Christian without believing every word and deed described in the bible happened exactly as written? Could a person be a Christian and remain agnostic about the true meaning and origins of the bible? I think so but then I'm not sure you'd still consider them a Christian.

Well....... a Christian is anyone who acts like Christ! Jesus said: "There are many of my followers not of this fold."

He also said: "To enter Heaven you must be like little children."
I don't know many biblical scholar children!

So to answer your question? By all means! Jesus wants our hearts, not our minds.

The Holy Bible is a great source of information, and inspiration to me and millions of others. But God won't be testing us on scripture. He will be judging us by what we've done for others!

It's interesting and ironic that Jesus' every reference to sin in the bible is what we "don't do". Sins of "omission".

Jesus has saved us from what we've done....But what about what we don't do?

Jesus talks about Judgement Day:

Matthew 25:31-46

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

-------------------------------------------------------
Notice that the sheep and the goats ask the same question. And also just helping ONE PERSON could save us in Jesus' eyes!

Man... I love this stuff!!! You just can't make this up!!! Praise The Lord!!!

Thank you for your questions... they have been honest, interesting and have inspired the Holy Spirit!

[Whateverist]

Well, you surprise me with your willingness to allow that a Christian need not be in touch with the bible. I wonder if you would go even further to allow that a good novel, poem or holy book from another religious system which inspires a person to have more fellow feeling and to act on it in the way which would have pleased Jesus in the parable you shared would also be a Christian and 'saved' in the Christian sense. So many of the Christians who come here to save us seem to feel it is necessary to embrace the bible and to endeavor to follow it in every detail.

Have you ever considered that judgement, reward and punishment are all instantaneous and fluid. Goodness is its own reward and treachery is a kind of psychological suicide. Perhaps the story of a personal god who sits in judgement and takes you after death to an eternal reward, is a kind of metaphor? When you say "I believe that God is the reason...or "means" to life explained (THE WORD OF GOD) in the bible!" I find that compatible with what I'm suggesting so long as you are willing to read it for meaning rather than literally.

My dad on the other hand is an atheist, and thinks that "possibly" extraterrestrials dropped us here! He's always in a state of flux on the subject of creation!

Extraterrestrials really just kicks the can down the road, doesn't it? I couldn't very well be extraterrestrials 'all the way down'. At some point there is either abiogenesis or some intermediary being (who presumably under went his/her own abiogenesis). So, for my money, intermediary beings, like extraterrestrials just kicks the can down the road. Besides, if you really want to believe in a literal god, why cannot this being have brought about life through abiogenesis and evolution? (All powerful, right?)

If I may ask, are you a nun as your avatar suggests?

[Whateverist]

I'm signing off again for a while. If anyone leaves a response here that they'd like me to read don't hesitate to PM me and I'll at least PM you back. But now it is time to prioritize the real over the virtual again. See you in April.

[fr0d0]

Unfortunately, the joke is on the Jews. The entire OT was a work of fiction according to the The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts- Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University, and Neil Asher Silberman, a contributing editor to Archaeology Magazine.

The entire bible as a book on archaeology ...and why should that concern me? If I ever thought of it as competing with the world of scientific discovery then perhaps I might.

I'm signing off again for a while. If anyone leaves a response here that they'd like me to read don't hesitate to PM me and I'll at least PM you back. But now it is time to prioritize the real over the virtual again. See you in April.

Take it easy fella!

[ronedee]

Well, you surprise me with your willingness to allow that a Christian need not be in touch with the bible. I wonder if you would go even further to allow that a good novel, poem or holy book from another religious system which inspires a person to have more fellow feeling and to act on it in the way which would have pleased Jesus in the parable you shared would also be a Christian and 'saved' in the Christian sense. So many of the Christians who come here to save us seem to feel it is necessary to embrace the bible and to endeavor to follow it in every detail.

Well, I certainly won't argue with Christians who believe that the Holy Bible is the path to salvation! But, I will point to scripture that includes everyone in that salvation regardless of their reading ability.

Luke 9:49-50
John said, "Master, we saw someone driving out demons in your name. We tried to stop him, because he wasn't a follower like us." Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

As I said when I first got here, I'm not here to save anyone! Just strengthen and challenge my own faith. And to listen to, and present strong arguments for or against religion.

I like to rattle cages....but I also like to get my cage rattled too! In a spiritual sense that is!

If we don't challenge ourselves, we won't learn or be solid in our convictions.....whatever they are. Unfortunately, most here just throw slime around because either; they don't "want" to believe....or they are worried there just might be a God! I don't think I'm better, or worse than ANYONE ELSE! Regardless of my convictions or theirs! I don't hate my father for being an atheist! And he doesn't hate me for being a Catholic! And we both listen to each others pov....most of the time! LOL

I don't think that anyone wakes up one morning and says: "hello God, today I believe in you!" It's even a daily struggle for the faithful to keep-on believing!

But it starts with "wanting" to know more than what our physical world has presented to us, in our relatively short live span.

Some...like my own dad have never dealt with it. He thinks that's "it" when you hit the dirt! Just as many here do.

But ....it don't add-up to me. Through my faith in God and in Jesus, my life has been pretty good! I'm not rich. But I'm healthy, happy and have relatively little worry or fear. And a lot of love around me. Which I attribute 100% to my faith in God.

My dad on the other hand? Lives in fear and anxiety. He has had a lot of bad breaks in things that matter most in life. He has money, lives in a $3 million dollar house, literally on his own island....but isn't very happy! I attribute that to his lack of faith! He says he knows better! But watching him struggle with the important things like: health, family, love and peace in his life......... I'll forego the cash and take the others!

Have you ever considered that judgement, reward and punishment are all instantaneous and fluid. Goodness is its own reward and treachery is a kind of psychological suicide. Perhaps the story of a personal god who sits in judgement and takes you after death to an eternal reward, is a kind of metaphor? When you say "I believe that God is the reason...or "means" to life explained (THE WORD OF GOD) in the bible!" I find that compatible with what I'm suggesting so long as you are willing to read it for meaning rather than literally.

What you said? Yes! I'm a realist. But also, if you can take it that far in terms of a philosophy.... Why can't there be a literal God?!

There is a way to explain "why" it went down the way it did. And it can make sense in an intelligent way! I told another member here I would explain it at some point. But I need to assimilate a little more, before I agitate even more! LOL

Christians as a group, and most others can't quite get their heads around my theory of "the story" of everything. And that's fine.... But I have something interesting that makes sense to a "thinking" few, and a lot to me.

My dad on the other hand is an atheist, and thinks that "possibly" extraterrestrials dropped us here! He's always in a state of flux on the subject of creation!

Extraterrestrials really just kicks the can down the road, doesn't it? I couldn't very well be extraterrestrials 'all the way down'. At some point there is either abiogenesis or some intermediary being (who presumably under went his/her own abiogenesis). So, for my money, intermediary beings, like extraterrestrials just kicks the can down the road. Besides, if you really want to believe in a literal god, why cannot this being have brought about life through abiogenesis and evolution? (All powerful, right?)

I just get all starry-eyed when my dad gets on this subject! For one, he looks old and foolish! It's so unbecoming to watch an intelligent man sound like some little kid with a star-trek education talk about spacemen!

Funny thing is... he looks at me the same way when I talk about God! But, I'm better informed! LOL

If I may ask, are you a nun as your avatar suggests?

LMAO! No.... if you met me, you'd be totally shocked to even believe I was a Christian!

Mother Theresa is one of my heroes! Ron

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, I certainly won't argue with Christians who believe that the Holy Bible is the path to salvation! But, I will point to scripture that includes everyone in that salvation regardless of their reading ability.

Luke 9:49-50
John said, "Master, we saw someone driving out demons in your name. We tried to stop him, because he wasn't a follower like us." Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Well then, not "everyone" after all eh? Which personally, I'm more than a little bit happy about, some of us don't want any part in your little rituals you realize.

As I said when I first got here, I'm not here to save anyone! Just strengthen and challenge my own faith. And to listen to, and present strong arguments for or against religion.

Notify me when you hear or present one, I've always wanted to see one myself.

I like to rattle cages....but I also like to get my cage rattled too! In a spiritual sense that is!

If we don't challenge ourselves, we won't learn or be solid in our convictions.....whatever they are. Unfortunately, most here just throw slime around because either; they don't "want" to believe....or they are worried there just might be a God! I don't think I'm better, or worse than ANYONE ELSE! Regardless of my convictions or theirs! I don't hate my father for being an atheist! And he doesn't hate me for being a Catholic! And we both listen to each others pov....most of the time! LOL

You only blather on about god because you want to believe, or because you're worried that there isn't one

I don't think that anyone wakes up one morning and says: "hello God, today I believe in you!" It's even a daily struggle for the faithful to keep-on believing!

But it starts with "wanting" to know more than what our physical world has presented to us, in our relatively short live span.

Ends there too, because for all of your wanting, you still can't demonstrate that you know anything beyond what our physical world has presented to us.

Some...like my own dad have never dealt with it. He thinks that's "it" when you hit the dirt! Just as many here do.

But ....it don't add-up to me. Through my faith in God and in Jesus, my life has been pretty good! I'm not rich. But I'm healthy, happy and have relatively little worry or fear. And a lot of love around me. Which I attribute 100% to my faith in God.

I have a relative like that, had a habit of thanking god for the food on the table-nevermind that my wife and I put it on the table. The people in your life probably deserve a little more than the 0% you've allotted them in giving all credit to your fairies. But no, no, -your- faith, that's what did it.....

My dad on the other hand? Lives in fear and anxiety. He has had a lot of bad breaks in things that matter most in life. He has money, lives in a $3 million dollar house, literally on his own island....but isn't very happy! I attribute that to his lack of faith! He says he knows better! But watching him struggle with the important things like: health, family, love and peace in his life......... I'll forego the cash and take the others!

Some of us have never had to choose between happiness or cash, and a complete and utter lack of belief.

There is a way to explain "why" it went down the way it did. And it can make sense in an intelligent way! I told another member here I would explain it at some point. But I need to assimilate a little more, before I agitate even more! LOL

With any luck, people will have forgotten that you made such a claim before you've "assimilated a little bit more" and you'll never have to embarrass yourself.

Christians as a group, and most others can't quite get their heads around my theory of "the story" of everything. And that's fine.... But I have something interesting that makes sense to a "thinking" few, and a lot to me.

see above.

---

The entire bible as a book on archaeology ...and why should that concern me? If I ever thought of it as competing with the world of scientific discovery then perhaps I might.

Because those stories purport to establish the authority and authenticity of a certain fairy, without which, the concepts which depend on said fairy find themselves in deep shit.

[ronedee]

see above.

You should take your own advice!

[The Grand Nudger]

Oh I love this game, "how many responses can I get in without responding"...it's very closely related to "how often can I claim to possess an explanation without actually explaining anything". I'll play.

[Faith No More]

I'm not rich. But I'm healthy, happy and have relatively little worry or fear. And a lot of love around me. Which I attribute 100% to my faith in God.

If faith in god is responsible for this, how would you explain someone that has achieved all of this without faith?

My dad on the other hand? Lives in fear and anxiety. He has had a lot of bad breaks in things that matter most in life. He has money, lives in a $3 million dollar house, literally on his own island....but isn't very happy! I attribute that to his lack of faith! He says he knows better! But watching him struggle with the important things like: health, family, love and peace in his life......... I'll forego the cash and take the others!

I lack faith, yet I do not suffer from any of those things you have attributed to your father's lack of faith. Perhaps faith has nothing to do with these attributes you seem so eager with which to credit it.