Burden of Proof

[The Grand Nudger]

So if he had not been there and others like him how would you have learned about qualities in yourself like tolerance and patience and decision making if they are never tested?

I didn;t learn anything about myself, let alone about the qualities you listed from John...lol. None of that has anything to do with the thrust of our discussion or purpose of my recounting the tale either. However interesting he may have been, whatever I may have learned about myself, neither had the ability to make his claim of being the king of the dumpster any more compelling (or demonstrate that it was true).

Logic, logic, logic i'm going to listen to the music not count the notes and discuss the bars and movements. Then I will make my decision if I like what I hear. I understand there is uncertainty inherent in my position but that's why I call it a faith and I can live with that.

What is it that you think you are "listening to"? You -are- listening to the notes, the bars, and the movement. In the same way that all of this simply describes music in a way that we can communicate to each other, logic describes thought in a way that we can communicate to each other. No, not uncertainty inherent Mark, you aren't getting me, the situation is much more dire........ no measure of certainty possible, nothing but uncertainty, you will be incapable of demonstrating that any conclusion is true -even if it is-.

[Mark 13:13]

So if he had not been there and others like him how would you have learned about qualities in yourself like tolerance and patience and decision making if they are never tested?

I didn;t learn anything about myself, let alone about the qualities you listed from John...lol. None of that has anything to do with the thrust of our discussion or purpose of my recounting the tale either. However interesting he may have been, whatever I may have learned about myself, neither had the ability to make his claim of being the king of the dumpster any more compelling (or demonstrate that it was true).

Logic, logic, logic i'm going to listen to the music not count the notes and discuss the bars and movements. Then I will make my decision if I like what I hear. I understand there is uncertainty inherent in my position but that's why I call it a faith and I can live with that.

What is it that you think you are "listening to"? You -are- listening to the notes, the bars, and the movement. In the same way that all of this simply describes music in a way that we can communicate to each other, logic describes thought in a way that we can communicate to each other. No, not uncertainty inherent Mark, you aren't getting me, the situation is much more dire........ no measure of certainty possible, nothing but uncertainty, you will be incapable of demonstrating that any conclusion is true -even if it is-.

Dire, well I don't feel particularly threatened by my thinking processes, I do feel very worried by the bean counters who appear to be taking controll of world affairs (ps i'm not talking about you) and who seem to be unconcerned by the level of suffering caused to so many by their financial theories. I aslo feel threatened by Theists and Atheists who seem to feel the urge to force their World order on all just as many of you do(worry). I do worry as I get older and i'm now 50+ about the implications of the fact of my certain death on me personally and on those who care about me and I leave behind. But my thinking processes and my present mind set mmmh nope doesn't worry me sry , that's how it is.

[The Grand Nudger]

If that were any indicator of whether or not you should worry then we would expect all the whackjobs and weirdos that scare the shit out of you to be worried by their own thought process, willing to take a bet that they were calm as hindu cattle. Ultimately, even this is irrelevant, as whether or not you worry is independent of whether or not whatever claim you make is true, and whether or not you can demonstrate that it is....clearly.

[Mark 13:13]

If that were any indicator of whether or not you should worry then we would expect all the whackjobs and weirdos that scare the shit out of you to be worried by their own thought process, willing to take a bet that they were calm as hindu cattle. Ultimately, even this is irrelevant, as whether or not you worry is independent of whether or not whatever claim you make is true, and whether or not you can demonstrate that it is....clearly.

Very true in some cases not true in others, i see a trend in many but not allof these crack pots recognising at some level there was a danger under the surface of their thinking processes and had a concern to the outcome and looking for help and not getting it. But I take your point and understand what you say.

[Simon Moon]

Logic, logic, logic i'm going to listen to the music not count the notes and discuss the bars and movements. Then I will make my decision if I like what I hear. I understand there is uncertainty inherent in my position but that's why I call it a faith and I can live with that.

This 'logic' that you continually toss off as something so unimportant or meaningless, has lead to every advance (including the computer and internet you are currently using) there is.

The thing that you continue to miss, is that every belief and every argument can be examined for validity using logic. If the argument and belief does not hold up to logic, it is invalid.

If you want to continue to believe it nonetheless, fine. As long as you're happy basing your beliefs on how they make you feel instead of logic and evidence, have at it.

Remember, you came to an atheist forum, asserting that your god exists without supporting your assertions. Then you complain when we call you on it.

But know this, just because you think that logic and evidence are unimportant to discerning reality from fiction, does not make it so.

[The Grand Nudger]

More importantly, if logic is to be discarded so casually then those arguments for the existence of god (however poorly constructed - assume that a believer thinks they're just grand) go in the dustbin as well. If you don't trust the system 9-5 then suddenly start trusting it when it says what you want to hear, when it ends with the phrase "ergo god exists", well.....that's more than a little bit ridiculous.

[Welsh cake]

Strictly speaking there isn't anything in atheism that rules out the existence of a god- atheism just "rules out" belief in the existence of a god - not that Zone seemed to have this sort of usage in mind,but I figured it deserved mention.

Agnosticism sure. But on the narrower subject of belief/disbelief, Atheism is broadly the position of being "without god or gods". There's no room for speculating deities within just Atheism itself, just as there is no room for any speculation of the absence/non-existence of deities within Theism solely.

[Mark 13:13]

Logic, logic, logic i'm going to listen to the music not count the notes and discuss the bars and movements. Then I will make my decision if I like what I hear. I understand there is uncertainty inherent in my position but that's why I call it a faith and I can live with that.

This 'logic' that you continually toss off as something so unimportant or meaningless, has lead to every advance (including the computer and internet you are currently using) there is.

The thing that you continue to miss, is that every belief and every argument can be examined for validity using logic. If the argument and belief does not hold up to logic, it is invalid.

If you want to continue to believe it nonetheless, fine. As long as you're happy basing your beliefs on how they make you feel instead of logic and evidence, have at it.

Remember, you came to an atheist forum, asserting that your god exists without supporting your assertions. Then you complain when we call you on it.

But know this, just because you think that logic and evidence are unimportant to discerning reality from fiction, does not make it so.

I don't but I don't see it as being the only method to make an advancement, as after all if random processes can create a universe then why not a typewriter or a civilisation. But then again I don't believe in random forces even at the microcosmic level.

The geneticist Steve Jones has noted it as a mystery which is ‘unanswered by science’, a point which is echoed by Jared Diamond:
... we descend to a glaring failure: the inability of twentieth-century science to formulate an adequate Theory of Penis Length... astonishing as it seems, important functions of the human penis remain obscure.

I won't wait (sry have'nt) for science to prove or explain fully the origin of the penis with logic before putting it to good use. Logic didn't come into it.

Seems Einstein didn't wait for logic either

Albert Einstein wrote on the discovery of laws:

“There is no logical way to the discovery of these elemental laws. There is only the way of intuition, which is helped by a feeling for the order lying behind appearance.” (Beveridge, 1950)

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

There is so much stupid in the above post. I wouldn't know where to begin.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't but I don't see it as being the only method to make an advancement, as after all if random processes can create a universe then why not a typewriter or a civilisation. But then again I don't believe in random forces even at the microcosmic level.

Ultimately, "random forces" (I dont even have the patience to engage you on yet another issue where you are clearly and woefully out of your depth - so I'll run with it) -did- make typewriters and civilization. Here they are.

The geneticist Steve Jones has noted it as a mystery which is ‘unanswered by science’, a point which is echoed by Jared Diamond:
... we descend to a glaring failure: the inability of twentieth-century science to formulate an adequate Theory of Penis Length... astonishing as it seems, important functions of the human penis remain obscure.

I won't wait (sry have'nt) for science to prove or explain fully the origin of the penis with logic before putting it to good use. Logic didn't come into it.

You'll find it difficult to -explain- anything about that penis of yours without leveraging a little logic. How do you know you aren't using my penis btw. You're leveraging the concept of identity at the very least.

Seems Einstein didn't wait for logic either

Albert Einstein wrote on the discovery of laws:

“There is no logical way to the discovery of these elemental laws. There is only the way of intuition, which is helped by a feeling for the order lying behind appearance.” (Beveridge, 1950)

Intuition is a very pretty word for imagination, which can be hit or miss, true. Thing is, without taking those things one imagines and applying some logic you could conceivably discover billions of contradictory things - your discoveries would be entirely fruitless, no matter how many you made - and it would take a hell of along time to figure out which works by trial and error (and just as an added insult - that discovery that worked might itself be in error, working by some other unknown mechanism).

Categorical fail, you still don't seem to fully grasp the subject. To use your tool analogy, intuition is a great tool for imagining what could be, science a great tool for what is, reason for helping you distinguish between the two.