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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 1:11 pm
(January 9, 2013 at 12:55 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (January 9, 2013 at 12:26 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: I tried to communicate an answer disect it if you want or find that helps you understand what I am saying. If you want me to justify my answer then I cannot as we can't agree even on whats acceptable for proof so why bother.
The only thing I saw you post with regards to this was that you would pray that we would be 'open to persuasion'.
"I by myself have no other method, but of course I can hold within the framework of my own system that I can pray the The Holy Spirit allows them to be open to persuasion"
Is that what you are referring to?
If so, how does that apply to using the 'appropriate tools' in different situations?
Please explain.
The decision to become Atheist or otherwise for the majority of people in my opinion was not based on being straight jacketed in logic and the very fact that atheists can become Theists prove that this logic is the only thing that works idea and i'm talking serious big names. So how much so with people who are less capable of the kind of logical analysis you guys apply. I don't need to show the how just the result to suggest there must be other methods of persuasion.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 1:18 pm
(January 9, 2013 at 1:11 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: The decision to become Atheist or otherwise for the majority of people in my opinion was not based on being straight jacketed in logic and the very fact that atheists can become Theists prove that this logic is the only thing that works idea and i'm talking serious big names. So how much so with people who are less capable of the kind of logical analysis you guys apply. I don't need to show the how just the result to suggest there must be other methods of persuasion.
People don't decide to become atheists it's just the label people earn for rejecting the same number of religions everyone else in the world has also rejected but going one religion extra.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 1:19 pm
(January 9, 2013 at 1:18 pm)Zone Wrote: (January 9, 2013 at 1:11 pm)Mark 13:13 Wrote: The decision to become Atheist or otherwise for the majority of people in my opinion was not based on being straight jacketed in logic and the very fact that atheists can become Theists prove that this logic is the only thing that works idea and i'm talking serious big names. So how much so with people who are less capable of the kind of logical analysis you guys apply. I don't need to show the how just the result to suggest there must be other methods of persuasion.
People don't decide to become atheists it's just the label people earn for rejecting the same number of religions everyone else in the world has also rejected but going one religion extra.
Best definition I have heard so far at least its clear.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 1:31 pm
There is nothing in atheism that would rule out something like a God or something like an afterlife it's just not ruling specifically anything in unless there is evidence for it. Unless you're talking about scientific naturalism which is a kind of belief some atheists have. This would be the physical universe is all that exists and our consciousness existence is dependent upon physical matter. People tend to miss the implication of a literal lack of existence after death. It wouldn't be something that could happen to us personally for the reason that you would have to exist in order for something to happen to you in the first place.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 1:47 pm
(January 9, 2013 at 1:31 pm)Zone Wrote: There is nothing in atheism that would rule out something like a God or something like an afterlife it's just not ruling specifically anything in unless there is evidence for it. Unless you're talking about scientific naturalism which is a kind of belief some atheists have.
You're wasting your time.
Mark does not value evidence or reasoned argument to support his beliefs.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 1:55 pm
(January 9, 2013 at 1:47 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: You're wasting your time.
Mark does not value evidence or reasoned argument to support his beliefs.
I'm sure he can be helped to understand what atheism is about even if he has some kind of inner personal conviction of his relationship to God or Jesus or whatever. Though his inner conviction won't be much good as evidence for us.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 3:20 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2013 at 3:25 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
@ Mark
Since I've seen you mention how many people (and what type of people) become religious at some point more than once.....I'm going to have to inform you that you're flirting with both an appeal to authority, and an appeal to a majority/numbers - etc. It's as useless as shifting the burden of proof (for precisely the same reason) - so...it's no more compelling or reasonable than mentioning that many who once believed no longer do-and that these people are often very intelligent.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 3:38 pm
It seems to me that this can be boiled down to one observation.
Mark thinks he can assert whatever stupid shit he wants with no obligation to demonstrate any evidence to support his statement.
That would be nice if you can do it. He can't do it here.
In fact, the only place where that goes on is FOX news.
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 3:40 pm
(January 9, 2013 at 1:07 pm)Zone Wrote: The existence of God at least the God of the Bible, depends entirely on whether the supernatural exists or not. That's not what some theists are arguing. They argue their god IS NATURE. The natural universe.
Supernatural is a meaningless word until you define the scope and square-bounds of the word "natural" first.
(January 9, 2013 at 1:18 pm)Zone Wrote: People don't decide to become atheists it's just the label people earn for rejecting the same number of religions everyone else in the world has also rejected but going one religion extra. You are generalizing quite a bit here. Atheism is not just the rejection of god or gods, its also the lack of belief in god or gods. Someone may have never been introduced or even heard of the religion of the Giant Platypus in the Sun for example, and therefore have no belief in that Sun deity.
(January 9, 2013 at 1:31 pm)Zone Wrote: There is nothing in atheism that would rule out something like a God or something like an afterlife it's just not ruling specifically anything in unless there is evidence for it. Except that its the rejection of belief or lack of belief in the existence of a deity or deities.
Do you even know what Atheism is? You sound like you don't. Or maybe you're just baiting here? So which one is it?
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RE: Burden of Proof
January 9, 2013 at 3:49 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2013 at 3:51 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Strictly speaking there isn't anything in atheism that rules out the existence of a god- atheism just "rules out" belief in the existence of a god - not that Zone seemed to have this sort of usage in mind,but I figured it deserved mention.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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