50 years of friendship/fail

[Something completely different]

Today is a kind of national holiday here, or not. Kind of something everyone celebrates but no one knows why. Today is 50 years of franco - german friendship.
Is it segnificant? well historicaly yes.
You see, France and Germany, even do most think Frances main rival is Britain, use to be Europes arch enemies number one. For almoust 500 years we used to smash each others heads in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French%E2%8...man_enmity

Up to the point when Germany actualy declared the day it defeated France in the Franco - Prussian war it`s national Holiday.

After the second World war, it was concluded by the allies that one of the many reasons for the outbreak of the war was the almoust 500 year old French German enmity. So Charles de Gaulle and Konrad Adenauer on January 22, 1963 signed the treaty for French - German friendship.

Now this was essential for the rest of Europe because it meant a change of course in the then young European Union which would move away from simply being a bunch of trade agrements to being a political union.

The European union came into existance at first as a trade treaty between France and Germany, the treaty for trade with coal and steel.
Since then heavy industry has disapeared from most places in Europe, the union has grown in members and the goals of what the European union should be like have gone appart.

One could say that there is the position which was mainly proposed and still is proposed by the French, which calls for a political union of the continent, uniting parties and having a united European parlament equipt with more powers over the sovereign participants, a kind of alternative democratic superpower to the US.

Then the position mainly proposed by German politicians, which sees a union focused more on trade and information exchange, with no boundries set on cross country investment, trade and transfer. Leaving as much sovereignty as possible to the nations but making the exchange for individual people, information and buisness as easy as possible.

And of course, it would be unfair not to mention those who dont want the union at all.

Currently alot of people predict or see the union as failed, I would like to hear other Europeans opinions on this and what your opinions are on what this union should be like? if it should actualy exist? what went wrong? how it could be better? what it means for individuals? how importent "unity" is for Europeans? and so on.....

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

That's interesting considering that Germans were so fond of French music during the 17th and 18th century. German composers held French and Italian music in high regard and were trying to create a sort of blended style of the two.

[Darth]

Im actually a dual citizen (Aussie and British). So I can come over there whenever I like, I'm a fellow citizen :3.

I'm going to be for the free trade agreements (ooooh, huge shock there, Stue supporting free trade? *gasp*).

It seems to me that a continent with a rich history and highly diverse cultures is going to really struggle with forming a political union, even if it were voted on democratically by each country, even if the people did support it (the contempt for democracy I seem coming from Europe scares me quite frankly). People in West Australia aren't all fond of taking orders from eastern states (especially when people feel that W.A contributes much more than it gets back). I can't imagine how Germans might feel, taking orders from Brits, and vice versa.

Switzerland & Norway seems to have gone about it the right way (but for the currency peg). Shame Switzerland is landlocked.
Hell, look at Switzerland itself, it's a French/Italian/German mix (linguistically at least, yes I know the cultures aren't the same...), and yet I don't see it being in any danger of collapsing/dissolving any time soon... What are they doing right? What did Europe do differently? Democracy?

[Something completely different]

Im actually a dual citizen (Aussie and British). So I can come over there whenever I like, I'm a fellow citizen :3.

I'm going to be for the free trade agreements (ooooh, huge shock there, Stue supporting free trade? *gasp*).

It seems to me that a continent with a rich history and highly diverse cultures is going to really struggle with forming a political union, even if it were voted on democratically by each country, even if the people did support it (the contempt for democracy I seem coming from Europe scares me quite frankly). People in West Australia aren't all fond of taking orders from eastern states (especially when people feel that W.A contributes much more than it gets back). I can't imagine how Germans might feel, taking orders from Brits, and vice versa.

Switzerland & Norway seems to have gone about it the right way (but for the currency peg). Shame Switzerland is landlocked.
Hell, look at Switzerland itself, it's a French/Italian/German mix (linguistically at least, yes I know the cultures aren't the same...), and yet I don't see it being in any danger of collapsing/dissolving any time soon... What are they doing right? What did Europe do differently? Democracy?

Why do Brits believe that we Germans have a rivalty with them?!?! We really dont care that much, ask any German who he considers his national rival and he will tell you:

The Dutch and their football team.

The Germans actualy tend to see the Brits as a historic ally, especialy in the north (former Prussia) since we use to kick French ass for you whilest you took their colonies and navy.

Norway isn`t that good of an example since they follow every single bit of EU legislature, meaning that they incorporate every bill past in the European parlament although they arent a member, meaning that they will certainly become a member within this decade or the next.

The swiss?! Dont get me started, they are rich because they are a taxhaven, sucking it`s neighbouring countries dry of their taxmoney.
It`s the place where the Italian mob launders it`s profits and where political parties make campain adds complaining about "criminal german and french imigrants".
They are xenophobic assholes who`s economy will partialy collapse once they can no longer launder money for the italian mob or from taxeveaders.
When Monaco refused to force it`s banks to give away the numbers and names of French tax eveaders, then president Charles de Gaule let French troops march up at the Monaco border and completly cut of the country from the rest of the world until they gave in. Now those where the days.
Swizerland isn`t some heavenly country where everything is done right, they are Europes parasite!

I believe in a economic union with as little political union as possible.
A common agreement on human rights, a military alliance, a united border protection army, agreements for the coorparation of police forces and other institutions aswell as common reformation and investment goals decided in parlament are enought for me.

I dont want a powerfull "european president" or "european congress".
Sovereignty of the individual nations shouldnt be questioned

[Darth]

I knew mentioning Switzerland would get you going, you've mentioned your dislike of the country before.

I said nothing of Switzerland's wealth. I was talking about her successful mixing of diverse people and her system of government (rather direct democracy, as well federalism).

I've no problem with people getting their money out of the reach of corrupt, warmongering, evil governments and into Switzerland.

E: of course I don't think they are perfect, they do a number of things I find grossly offensive. I'd still choose them over any other european country (that I've looked into)

[Something completely different]

Yeah, I`m not that much into national stereotyping, but the fact that during a time of financial crisis these stupid cowfuckers dont understand that we might need the eastemated 3 BILLION EUROS in eveaded German taxmoney makes my blood boil.
I hope we go back to the French Charle de Gaul days and simply lock down their border to completly let their economy and inferstructure crash, alot of their buisnesses rely on German and French professionals who commute to Swizerland.

Swizerland was always diverse. In a way.........
Because when the Confederatio Helvetica was founded, it consisted of people from parts of Europe, who usualy smashed each others heads in (Germany, Austria, France, Italy).
But what about today? Frankly, hardly any other European nation is so unfriedly towards foreigners than the Swiss, really, I dont know of any other foreign country where politicians go into campain whilest willfully risking a diplomatic fallout with neighbours, they are notoriously xenophobic. They might be seperated in German speaking French speaking and Italian spaking - but they hate everything which isnt from Swizerland.
The direct democracy is only present in certain Kantone (states) such as Uril, but I have to agree that federalism is a great way, if not the best to run a country, unfortunatly there are only a few federal republics in Europe.

My goverment is one of the lowest on the corruption list, we have had one war in 60 years and although Merkel might not be very sympathetic she isn`t evil.
I guess you are simply the kind of liberterian to whom pragmatism means defeat, but that seems to be very common amongst alot of ideologies.
Fact is, scumbags like the mob dont deserve their money to be protected by the swiss goverment. Or would you protect an organisation which makes profits from human trafficing.
And fact also is, if you life within the borders of Germany, you pay German taxes, if you dont like it - convince the public to change the system.

[Darth]

I guess you are simply the kind of liberterian to whom pragmatism means defeat, but that seems to be very common amongst alot of ideologies.

I'm unwilling to compromise on a lot of things yes, liberty for one. But how on earth did you get that from my last two posts? Especially given how fond I seem of switzerland, despite it's lack of perfection?


Hey, fall all their 'hate' they sure seem content to leave everyone else the hell alone. They seem quite alright from where I'm sitting.

3 Billion? That number seems awfully low...



You tried surrounding them on all their borders down already, didn't work so well as I recall... :3

[Something completely different]

I'm unwilling to compromise on a lot of things yes, liberty for one. But how on earth did you get that from my last two posts? Especially given how fond I seem of switzerland, despite it's lack of perfection?


Hey, fall all their 'hate' they sure seem content to leave everyone else the hell alone. They seem quite alright from where I'm sitting.

3 Billion? That number seems awfully low...





You tried surrounding them on all their borders down already, didn't work so well as I recall... :3

If I had to summerise my political convictions in a few words it would be mhmmm.

Pragmatic supporter of a federal republic.

I have the unshaken belief that a decentralised goverment with a more local administrative body is far more effective than a central goverment.

Prgamatism? Yes. I dont blieve that any single political idiolgy can provide a perfect state, it would contradict the very principle of democracy.

I dont think that the left can provide the structures nececery for a flurishing economy, nore that the conservatives can actively produce more social change nore that liberterians can provide social nececeties and inferstructure.

My vote depends on who can be more convincing with studies, facts and logistcaly realistic numbers.

The greatest sounding concept is worthless if it doesnt work.

It is not about them leaving everyone alone. Their bankingsystem is (and that is proven and therefor undenyable fact) providing the structures which helps criminal elemts in all of europe escape prosecution, they have always been a thorn in the eyes of every lawinforcement of every European nation.

3 Billion not alot? Maybe it sound like not alot, if I can tell you something about german politics then it is that every single cent is counted and it`s spending evaluated countless times.

But I think 3 billion is alot and I guess so does everyone else.

World War 2 may have a impact on German-Israeli, German-Polish, German - French ... and pritty much our releations with everyone.

But not the swiss, and the comparison is a bit weird, if you ment it serious.

[Darth]

Mind elaborating on those last two lines? I'm a bit confused.

Pragmatic supporter of a federal republic.

I have the unshaken belief that a decentralised goverment with a more local administrative body is far more effective than a central goverment.

Switzerland meets those criteria, no?

I dont think that the left can provide the structures nececery for a flurishing economy, nore that the conservatives can actively produce more social change nore that liberterians can provide social nececeties and inferstructure.

So you disagree with the left financially, with the conservatives on social policies.... see where I'm going with this?




Odd use of the word 'can'. Did you mean that libertarians would be unable to deliver what little they promise to deliver (you'll find a fair number of libertarians still in favour of basic infrastructure government spending, and libertarian parties, such as the Australian LDP are in favour of 'flat' taxes with a negative income tax, essentially the really poor are just given some money, rather than it being filtered through vast bureaucracies and politicised charities)? Or that the free market will be unable to?

edit: I'll post on pragmatism after the last two lines are cleared up.

3 Billion not alot? Maybe it sound like not alot, if I can tell you something about german politics then it is that every single cent is counted and it`s spending evaluated countless times.

Wouldn't expect anything less. Part of the reason you're so successful no doubt. I just mean that If I lived there I'd get every cent I had out (and not into swiss franc's either due to the peg, just into switzerland, untouchable by not just the german government, but all the european countries demanding a bailout), so I'm surprised the number was only 3 billion.

[Dee Dee Ramone]

Happy 50 years of Franco-German friendship day to everybody!

I love the EU. It's still an expanding bastion of human rights, safety and prosperity. I hope it stays that way for many generations, screw that nationalistic bullshit.