Posts: 14259
Threads: 48
Joined: March 1, 2009
Reputation:
80
RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 9:05 am
What we know about God is reasoned. Supposed backward goat herders did the same.
Their conclusions were not unique, but the culmination of a lot of ideas honed over time to come up with a working description.
If God is this, does this, can do this, then we can conclude this... is how it works.
Posts: 319
Threads: 3
Joined: January 30, 2013
Reputation:
8
RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 9:16 am
So if god did X, then he is Y, which means he can do X.
If you believe it, question it. If you question it, get an answer. If you have an answer, does that answer satisfy reality? Does it satisfy you? Probably not. For no one else will agree with you, not really.
Posts: 13900
Threads: 262
Joined: January 11, 2009
Reputation:
82
RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 1:26 pm
(February 16, 2013 at 6:26 pm)chasingthetruth Wrote: He isn't bound by the same laws of existence that he himself dictated, why is it necessary for him to have had a creator? (for those who use this argument)
If this god set the laws of existence how did it exist before?
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
Posts: 14259
Threads: 48
Joined: March 1, 2009
Reputation:
80
RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 1:37 pm
(This post was last modified: February 22, 2013 at 1:38 pm by fr0d0.)
Quote: if god did X, then he is Y, which means he can do X.
If God could do X, then God has to be Y.
We can't say what he's done without first understanding what he's capable of.
Posts: 66521
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 1:52 pm
(This post was last modified: February 22, 2013 at 1:53 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Well that's ass backwards, I can tell you a whole hell of alot about what any given entity has done without having the slightest idea of it's overall capabilities beyond the act in question (even that's up for dispute, no telling what sort of help or circumstance the entity in question may have lucked out on).
For example, my son took a shit this morning, however, I still have no idea whether or not he's capable of playing Beethovens fifth. Hell, maybe he is and maybe he isn't, and maybe that turd just escaped.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 319
Threads: 3
Joined: January 30, 2013
Reputation:
8
RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 4:19 pm
(February 22, 2013 at 1:37 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Quote: if god did X, then he is Y, which means he can do X.
If God could do X, then God has to be Y.
We can't say what he's done without first understanding what he's capable of.
Then how do you tell if God is Y, or if he can do X? What have you seen, heard, or otherwise experienced that has led you to the knowledge of anything in regards to what god is, or what he can do?
And how do you justify that if god could create the universe, then he has to be the creator? We don't know that, do we? Not everyone who can do something, does do that thing.
If you believe it, question it. If you question it, get an answer. If you have an answer, does that answer satisfy reality? Does it satisfy you? Probably not. For no one else will agree with you, not really.
Posts: 5598
Threads: 112
Joined: July 16, 2012
Reputation:
74
RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 4:48 pm
(February 22, 2013 at 4:04 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Because one is time dependant and one isn't.
Also, scientific questions are another subject
How do you know God is not time-dependent?
Posts: 14259
Threads: 48
Joined: March 1, 2009
Reputation:
80
RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 5:06 pm
(This post was last modified: February 22, 2013 at 5:20 pm by fr0d0.)
(February 22, 2013 at 4:19 pm)Question Mark Wrote: (February 22, 2013 at 1:37 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: If God could do X, then God has to be Y.
We can't say what he's done without first understanding what he's capable of.
Then how do you tell if God is Y, or if he can do X? What have you seen, heard, or otherwise experienced that has led you to the knowledge of anything in regards to what god is, or what he can do?
And how do you justify that if god could create the universe, then he has to be the creator? We don't know that, do we? Not everyone who can do something, does do that thing.
Loop to the post above: what we know about God we reasoned. What we now see, hear, or otherwise experience we do with the understanding that this reasoning affords us. In scientific knowledge, that is zero. In understanding purpose, it's everything.
Once more I'll repeat it: religion doesn't inform scientific investigation one tiny bit. Origins is a question for science, not religion.
(February 22, 2013 at 4:48 pm)Ryantology Wrote: How do you know God is not time-dependent? Because we reasoned that. Lots of big ideas fit together. God knows everything/ is all powerful... These attributes are basic to a deity. For those to work the deity has to also traverse time. To remain coherent, your model of deity has to possess all qualities that work together. Otherwise your model is flawed and your deity disproven. The model for the xtian God works and is consistent.
Posts: 5598
Threads: 112
Joined: July 16, 2012
Reputation:
74
RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 5:32 pm
(This post was last modified: February 22, 2013 at 5:35 pm by Ryantology.)
(February 22, 2013 at 5:06 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Because we reasoned that. Lots of big ideas fit together. God knows everything/ is all powerful... These attributes are basic to a deity. For those to work the deity has to also traverse time. To remain coherent, your model of deity has to possess all qualities that work together. Otherwise your model is flawed and your deity disproven. The model for the xtian God works and is consistent.
You are not reasoning God, you are creating attributes which justify his existence. You're taking the answer (God), assuming that it cannot possibly be the wrong answer, and working backwards from that by inventing 'facts' to 'prove' the answer, coming up with whatever you can so as to avoid the conclusion that your deity doesn't exist. You're doing it completely wrong. What you should be doing is examining the facts as they are and working towards the answer, whatever it happens to be.
What you're doing isn't reasoning, it's rationalizing.
Posts: 14259
Threads: 48
Joined: March 1, 2009
Reputation:
80
RE: Why Does God Need A Creator?
February 22, 2013 at 5:59 pm
(This post was last modified: February 22, 2013 at 6:00 pm by fr0d0.)
I guess you disagree with mathematical solutions to problems for exactly the same reasons Ryan.
When a clear solution is found, you say: well you assume your answer can't be wrong, so you are right.
But of course now you conveniently abandon your other objection that there are thousands of ideas so how do you know that your one is right.
|
