Israel

[The Grand Nudger]

I really have nothing to say to you after this line, especially !

You didn't have much to say before my response though, and that's the point I was trying to drive home with it.

A big shock for me.. for you to empathize with people who kicked millions out of their land & took it, but as we all know : nobody blamed american for taking the land from the natives

More like empathizing for the people who got the short end of the expansion stick. Is someone "blaming" some other culture for what happened to the native american cultures? I wasn't aware, as it's made pretty clear - to middle schoolers here- precisely what happened when two worlds collided and who was involved. America blames america for the effects of expansion. Native cultures were obliterated, and I'm not exactly going to point the fickle finger at those who resisted that - but I wouldn't excuse anyone for their actions if those actions involved engaging in a campaign of terrorism (any more than one might excuse those who did precisely the same thing as they expanded westward - for example). I'm not sure why you think otherwise, and I'm not sure whether or not you imagine that there is any culture that isn't guilty on this charge.

History is cruel, vae victus, but misdeeds of the past or present do not excuse ones own misdeeds in the past or present. You're going to need to add a hell of alot of meat to this broth before I'll call it a stew.

[WinterHold]

And the only part of Israel which concerns you is their occupation of Jerusalem. Jerusalem has been inhabited by Jewish people for at least 3,000 years, and by Israelites for 2,000 years before that.

I have tired to write all this again, but I must be patient with you -especially you -_-" -..

I have no problem with jews in palestine.
I have a problem with this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Legion

and this

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."[63]

You see -again-, british aren't arabs to tell us what to do. This land ain't there's to divide it like they want.

The jews started the war by the aid of the british.. please, don't write to me before either disprove the evidence I got -which is in the quote which you can find its link in my previous comment to missluckie-, or just say that you don't actually care because the enemy of your enemy is your friend : )

They've lived in the land of Israel for 600 years, they are not immigrants or lesser citizens.

... did I say that, really ?

or did I say that my problem was with immigrations which took place under the british occupations, and the previous legion between jew officials & the british -before a very very long time- to take Palestine from the arabs by the aid of the british invasion ??

I don't have a problem with Islamic immigrations. I have a problem with Islam, if it were up to me Islam would be banned in Australia.

Yes they are foreign immigrants & yes, that war started after importing almost a million jew to israel to establish the kingdom of israel after the disapora !

Aractus wikipedia says this from many sources ! please what are you trying to prove ?

nobody had problems with early small immigrations, for 600 years nobody talked..

that war started after the arabs natives couldn't even find jobs from the mass jewish immigrations !

please answer the point : )

Don't dance about the point. They've lived in Israel for 600 years, they are now inhabitants of the land, no longer are they immigrants, understand?

I support peace, but I don't support invasion : )

My proposal would be to abolish Jordan and Israel both and create a new secular State with a constitutional separation of Church and State and which comprises the entire region. Sound fair to you?
[/quote]

Yeah, I actually enlarged this just to show you that I really don't have problems with early jewish immigrations

So, after reading what I wrote :

nobody had problems with early small immigrations, for 600 years nobody talked..

I really believe you didn't read my posts, right ?

please read them & then comment, because I simply don't have enough time to repeat myself.

Don't dance about the point. They've lived in Israel for 600 years, they are now inhabitants of the land, no longer are they immigrants, understand?

Dance about what ?
I already said that my problem started with the zionist agreement with the british & the following immigrations which were really big & huge.

---

I really have nothing to say to you after this line, especially !

You didn't have much to say before my response though, and that's the point I was trying to drive home with it.

A big shock for me.. for you to empathize with people who kicked millions out of their land & took it, but as we all know : nobody blamed american for taking the land from the natives

More like empathizing for the people who got the short end of the expansion stick. Is someone "blaming" some other culture for what happened to the native american cultures? I wasn't aware, as it's made pretty clear - to middle schoolers here- precisely what happened when two worlds collided and who was involved. America blames america for the effects of expansion. Native cultures were obliterated, and I'm not exactly going to point the fickle finger at those who resisted that - but I wouldn't excuse anyone for their actions if those actions involved engaging in a campaign of terrorism (any more than one might excuse those who did precisely the same thing as they expanded westward - for example). I'm not sure why you think otherwise, and I'm not sure whether or not you imagine that there is any culture that isn't guilty on this charge.

History is cruel, vae victus, but misdeeds of the past or present do not excuse ones own misdeeds in the past or present. You're going to need to add a hell of alot of meat to this broth before I'll call it a stew.

Just revise my response to "missluckie".

and, what actions, Rythem, what actions for god's sake ?

people, invaded, murdered, kicked out of their lands.. what do you want more ?

please tell me what do you want ? what do you want us arabs to do ??

just die & clear this world for you ?

history isn't cruel. Humans like you are, because if you can't see that jews started the war -even when the evidence is in front of you-, then you can deny anything else that doesn't match your preference..

keep denying history, keep denying that jews started this war by literally invading palestine with the british in 1915.

keep denying that they did that to allow bigger immigrations..

I hope to see your opinion about this when Muslim immigrations get out of hand & a similar scenario takes place..

You see, I will stand with the natives -even if they were atheists-

Double standards aint good.. denying history is even worse.

Again, respond to my evidence please that jews fought the arabs first. Because if you agreed, then both are part of the war, and both -according your comment, this comment below- are wrong, which would prove that your empathy with jews is really a prefect example of double standards.

No, Atlass, there really isn't. There's us and them, winners and losers, heros and villians - but better, nah, takes too many backflips to make that work out. If the first step in laying a case in against Israel is to make them the bad guys and excuse their adversaries for what have you (for example), I'm afraid it's DOA.

[The Grand Nudger]

Just revise my response to "missluckie".

and, what actions, Rythem, what actions for god's sake ?

Actions undertaken by organizations such as the PLO.

people, invaded, murdered, kicked out of their lands.. what do you want more ?

None of which excuses the above or makes either side the good guys. Just makes it an us and a them - and which one either faction is is dependent upon which side of that line one stands. What's so difficult to understand about this?

please tell me what do you want ? what do you want us arabs to do ??

just die & clear this world for you ?

?

history isn't cruel. Humans like you are.

keep denying history, keep denying that jews started this war by literally invading palestine with the british in 1915.

keep denying that they did that to allow bigger immigrations..

I hope to see your opinion about this when Muslim immigrations get out of hand & a similar scenario takes place..

Okay, I suppose history spends it's time running around handing out daisies and lollipops. Humans can be cruel, yes, just like me, because I'm a human being. I hope this isn't an area of disagreement between us, but what effect it has on the subject of Israel and Palestine - or where I have been cruel in that discussion, is a complete mystery to me.

At what point has history been denied? Just point it out.

Do you have a problem with immigration?

A similar scenario to what takes place, and where? Why would my opinion change if the details are similar?

You see, I will stand with the natives -even if they were atheists-

You'e free to stand wherever you like? Keep in mind that your notion of what it means to be a native is just a snapshot in time. You are an immigrant, I am an immigrant, the crushing majority of the overall human population is that of immigrants. Nearly to the man, we came from somewhere other than where we are.

Double standards aint good.. denying history is even worse.

Agreed, but again, what that has to do with my responses to you or this conversation is a mystery.

Again, respond to my evidence please that jews fought the arabs first. Because if you agreed, then both are part of the war, and both -according your comment, this comment below- are wrong, which would prove that your empathy with jews is really a prefect example of double standards.

Your bias is showing, in this entire thread I've been talking about empathizing with the -Palestinians-.........but you clearly can't process that, it isn't part of your narrative of the "west". What double standard? Who's excusing anyone for anything, firstly, and secondly it occurs to me that maybe you weren't clear on what tq means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

There you go, this is why your screed against the jews has been DOA from the very first letter you typed. It wouldn't matter if the jews ate your fucking children - it would not excuse your own misdeeds. I would understand, hell I may even cheer for you (because remember, from above, I'm a human being - and in addition to being cruel I am many other things) - but it won't make you the good guy. It is not a compelling argument because the foundation of the argument is a classic logical fallacy.

[WinterHold]

I admit that I get sensitive when writing these threads : ) Maybe my behavior would explain to you what arabs go through everyday.

The issue of palestine took place in front of the whole world. Nobody talked or even raised a finger to help us. From an invasion to invasion, the advent of israel was the expolosive part..

we got out of that with one conclusion : the west doesn't give a fuck about us. It's then, when people like me started to appear, who have many contradicted opinions about the west.

So excuse me, but I went through a lot. and my people went through a lot.

I'm human after all. I can hide behind coolism for sometime, but in topics like this, my true nature appears ; nothing more than a child asking for some attention.. human after all. I just wait for that one comment from a westerner who might tell me : Yes ; jews treated you really bad.

That's all I want to hear.

back to your post.

Actions undertaken by organizations such as the PLO.

Just to accept the harsh reality, right ? no I don't agree with them. The land goes back to how it was ; arab & muslim. sorry. this was an invasion as I stated, and we -arabs- don't accept more conflicts & division in our already small countries.

None of which excuses the above or makes them the good guys. What's so difficult to understand about this?

The children who got kicked out of their land, Rythem..the children buddy, the massacres, what happens now !

read the news..

Okay, I suppose history spends it's time running around handing out daisies and lollipops. Humans can be cruel, yes, just like me, because I'm a human being. I hope this isn't an area of disagreement between us, but what effect it has on the subject of Israel and Palestine - or where I have been cruel in that discussion, is a complete mystery to me.

At what point has history been denied? Just point it out.

Do you have a problem with immigration?

A similar scenario to what takes place, and where? Why would my opinion change if the details are similar?

Point out where I said that I don't agree with immigration.

Agreed, but again, what that has to do with my responses to you or this conversation is a mystery.

Because I thought your empathy goes with Israel ; I already apologized about that : )

Your bias is showing, in this entire thread I've been talking about empathizing with the -Palestinians-.........but you clearly can't process that, it isn't part of your narrative of the "west". What double standard? Who's excusing anyone for anything, firstly, and secondly it occurs to me that maybe you weren't clear on what tq means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

There you go, this is why your screed against the jews has been DOA from the very first letter you typed. It wouldn't matter if the jews ate your fucking children - it would not excuse your own misdeeds. I would understand, hell I may even cheer for you (because remember, from above, I'm a human being - and in addition to being cruel I am many other things) - but it won't make you the good guy. It is not a compelling argument because the foundation of the argument is a classic logical fallacy.

In the posts, not the main topic. I did what I promised to do ; no religious or personal thoughts, all sources & evidence.

on the posts, of course I'm biased, and I think everybody knows that since I decided to write this topic.

But is the topic itself biased for my opinion ? no..it's actual history which my opinion was actually built on.

being human doesn't excuse you for being cruel, sorry.

And Rythm, you wrote this on a previous post

Technically, Palestine "belongs" to Israel, not "teh jews". So sayeth the the F-series air superiority fighters.

so you can understand why I thought you're emphasizing with "teh jews", right ?
Israel isn't an Islamic state. It was built on Jewish faith, and millions of jews are supporting it everywhere.. to me, they are "the jews".

Label, my friend. Just a label. It's a jewish thought, in jewish religion, with jewish support. Nah, this ain't just israel.

Bring me something in Islam's history -which is part of the religion & which majority has supported- and believe me I won't deny it or deny that Islam caused it..

The occupation of Constantinople is an example. as simple as that..

[The Grand Nudger]

I admit that I get sensitive when writing these threads : ) Maybe my behavior would explain to you what arabs go through everyday.

The issue of palestine took place in front of the whole world. Nobody talked or even raised a finger to help us. From an invasion to invasion, the advent of israel was the expolosive part..

we got out of that with one conclusion : the west doesn't give a fuck about us. It's then, when people like me started to appear, who have many contradicted opinions about the west.

So excuse me, but I went through a lot. and my people went through a lot.

I'm human after all. I can hide behind coolism for sometime, but in topics like this, my true nature appears ; nothing more than a child asking for some attention.. human after all. I just wait for that one comment from a westerner who might tell me : Yes ; jews treated you really bad.

That's all I want to hear.

back to your post.

Atlass...everyone's people went through alot, and that's only the myopic view.....we're all the same people in the first damned place.

Just to accept the harsh reality, right ? no I don't agree with them. The land goes back to how it was ; arab & muslim. sorry. this was an invasion as I stated, and we -arabs- don't accept more conflicts & division in our already small countries.

An invasion, which, apparently, one side lost. This is the reality of nations. It would be much more tenable (to me) to argue that the land should go to the way that the people who currently occupy it wish for it to be. Some past slight isn't going to make a case for Palestine.

The children who got kicked out of their land, Rythem..the children buddy, the massacres, what happens now !

read the news..

None....of...which...excuses....either side...for any misdeed they commit or plan to commit in retaliation thereof.

Point out where I said that I don't agree with immigration.

The crux of this entire thread has been that jews are immigrants and invaders as though this somehow weighs in on whether or not Israel has a claim to some piece of territory.

Because I thought your empathy goes with Israel ; I already apologized about that : )

It does, Isrealis and Palestinians.

In the posts, not the main topic. I did what I promised to do ; no religious or personal thoughts, all sources & evidence.

on the posts, of course I'm biased, and I think everybody knows that since I decided to write this topic.

But is the topic itself biased for my opinion ? no..it's actual history which my opinion was actually built on.

I guess I'll keep hammering this until it sticks - even if you built a mountain of well supported statements, invoking tq renders the lot useless for constructing a compelling case.

being human doesn't excuse you for being cruel, sorry.

Of course not, but my being cruel wouldn't excuse others for being cruel either......TQ

And Rythm, you wrote this on a previous post

Technically, Palestine "belongs" to Israel, not "teh jews". So sayeth the the F-series air superiority fighters.

so you can understand why I thought you're emphasizing with "teh jews", right ?

Meh, I can understand that you have a narrative about the west and westerners and jews that would likely lead you to that conclusion, sure. You could have just asked, of course. Whether or not air superiority is leveraged to maintain a claim of territory has very little to say about whether or not I agree with the claim to territory.

Israel isn't an Islamic state. It was built on Jewish faith, and millions of jews are supporting it everywhere.. to me, they are "the jews".

Not an islamic state? So what? That's classic us and them. It's ridiculous, and case in point - is perpetuating the scenario that you're talking about. Of course it doesn't help that the only resolution you seem to be able to conceive of is total victory for "us" and utter defeat for "them".

Label, my friend. Just a label. It's a jewish thought, in jewish religion, with jewish support. Nah, this ain't just israel.

Bring me something in Islam's history -which is part of the religion & which majority has supported- and believe me I won't deny it or deny that Islam caused it..

The occupation of Constantinople is an example. as simple as that..

See why removing religion is crucial to solving a political problem? How do you propose to solve a political problem if you can't even begin to work past religion? Jewish this, muslim that, it's all nonsense - and doesn't belong in a discussion about a nation or it's policies and future when the stakes and outcomes are literally life and death - feast and famine. I don't consult Grimms Fairy Tales before going to war - and it doesn't have any weight in the decision-. Personally, I feel that anyone who does so or cannot help but to invoke the same does not need to be and does not deserve to be a part of that conversation. Down this road lay only tears.

---

I'm clearly not getting any traction here, I'm not sure why, but lets approach this from a different angle.

Are you prepared to call for the return of all lands invaded, occupied by, or massively immigrated into, by islamic people to their native inhabitants?

Does the murder of anyone or group of people in the past or present by islamic people excuse those people (or anyone else) for killing muslims in the past or present?

[EGross]

Speaking as an Israeli, I have been very reluctant to add my 2 shekels, but I wanted to jet give a more rational view of the thing. A more reasonable argument is really to see it as two teams competing in a game, and you have a few bullies trying to change the way the game works, and then you get the neighbors taking sides, and everyone loves an underdog...

In the USA, when the Americans and the French were competing for the SE area, they started a game of "who can settle the most amount of land first". Eventually the French conceded. Other countries have done the same. Some with more force than others.

At an early point, Jews were buying land up until it became a capital offence by the Arab leadership. Some still do it at their own peril, although their leadership may declare it as an invalid sale nevertheless, and then it goes into the courts. There are also areas that nobody wanted to live in initially, and they are often referred to as uncontested areas. Those uncontested areas, such as the swamps that were full of mosquitos contaminated with malaria, settlers came in and cleaned it up and made it habitable. Arabs, seeing what was going on also started land grabbing of what was once undesirable as well, by puting up empty shacks on some land as a place holder, and Jews put up caravans (cheap version of a mobile home that goes nowhere) on hilltops. Jews were having lots of babies, and Arabs with multiple wives weren't standing still either.

And then the WWII came and everything changed. Primarily because of a few evil leaders decided to take advantage of the situation and so they worked with the Nazis. That never helps keep good relations.

Lots of stuff in between made it all worse in certain segments. And then the decision to give the Arabs what is now called the "Trans-Jordan" area occurred. The Palestinians tried to move in, the Jordanians killed tens of thousands, while the world said nothing, and Jordan took it.

So now you got a group of Palestinian Arabs with no place to go demanding their rightful land. So another line is drawn. A green one.

At that point, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, and other nations eject all of it's Jews, steal their property, and penniless Arab-Jews arrive to settle, while the world said nothing about the theft of their homelands.

In short, at that time, the nations of the world really didn't care about the Jews, the Arabs, or what the French President called a "shitty little county".

You then end up with two groups vying for superiority. And when the other Arab nations attacked, the internal ones joined them. And when the Jews stuck back and won, and the internal ones who fought agaisnt them tried to come back, they were told "Um, no, it doesn't work that way", and so Israel maintained the area that they attacked based on their survival, and extended their boundries. ("Aw, c'mon, we thought you were going to all die! No hard feelings, eh? We have a right to return!")

Now, at this point, you have a two groups, each one citing their own proofs why they deserve to be there. You have Arabs who become Israelis, join the congress, and work hard, earn a good living, and send their kids to school so they can also have a decent life. You also have Arabs who see that as betrayal, and want their own country, and even burn Israeli-Arab polling stations.

Unfortunately, the Palestinians have been pawns, and have corrupt leadership. When Arafat (an Egyptian) died, so did the hundreds of millions he had taked from the world and had put away outside of the country. The current leadership, Abbas, and his sons each have magnificent mansions, while an infrastructure has yet to have been fully developed. And you get angry people, and it must be because of the Jews that life sucks, while the Israelis have built water systems, technology centers, streets, schools, hospitals, and the things that a civiliized society would expect.

Put all of that aside, and let's get back to the game, and ignore the bullies and the neighborhood that is taking sides and rooting for the underdog, who is an underdog because the manager of the team.

Where I live, there was a housing freeze. The Arab neighborhood next to us was horribly affected because we hired them to do most of the work! Now, why you might ask why would Arabs help Jews build settlements? Because this entire argument of "stopping settlement building" is all a scam. You see, eventually a line will be drown and eveyone will agree on it (well, a majority, anyhow), and anyone left on the wrong side will either have to start paying takes to their new residence (if an Arab finds homself on the Israeli side), or he will have to move and anything there is now forfeit (if an Israeli finds himself on the Palestinian side). So the Arabs, the ones who want to work for a living, are delighted about building homes and having work, because they not only get money, but there is a possibility that they will get to take those very homes for themselves someday in the future.

Where I live, Jews and Arabs shop together, live next to each other, and since many of their villiages don't have emergency centers, they can come to ours if it is the nearest one. I am not saying that there isn't stress. Once, a radical who had a brother who live next to us decided to blow up the emergency medical center that we shared on a border. After that, we moved it inside our town, and one needs to be checked before we let him enter.

Assholes ruin stuff.

So long as the game plays itself out, eventually a line will be drawn. But when you have bullies on any side demanding everything, then the game of colonialism becomes something different. Israel did a test. It gave up Gaza a few years back. The Jews who lived there lost almost everything, were not recompensed, and any reminder of a Jewish presence was wiped out. And Hamas kicked out Fatah, made it their base of operations, and Abbas became a persona-non-grata, forbidden to go there. And the result was that Hamas could fire missiles more readily into the country. (Now we know where the millions of dollars has gone to. This was not cheap technology, everall).

That kind of giveaway will probably not happen again. It will have to be something different. I leave that to the political process, and so we continue to settle and have kids and hire palestinians to do the building, and I will still call Machmoud to rebuild my patio, for the time being, since he did a decent job on our trellis.

It could be possible for the Palestinians to have a much strong voice in the government of Israel, but Fatah will not permit it. When it is time for Israeli elections, there are about 10 Arab parties. But Fatah typically threatens the Israeli Arabs who might vote, intimidates them not to vote, and many of their voting stations will either burn down, or their ballot boxes will end up being destroyed by Fatah forced who believe that voting is like "giving into the man". What they don't realize is that by "being the man" they can have a stronger voice, but the bullies are hurting the game.

Personally, I want to see a line made, so I can figure out where I want to build our next home (with grandchildren, we are running out of room and there's a nice hilltop that I have my eye on, but only if I can be sure it will be on the right side of the line), this living with uncertainty isn't useful. Suspending building won't help a thing, it will make it worse because the Arabs won't have work, and they will end up being impoverished, while their leaders still collect millions every month. Pissed off people doesn't help things.

It's just a game.

[Dee Dee Ramone]

It's just a game and everybody is losing.

[Something completely different]

[EGross]

Very nice! You get a kudo from me on that one! This must explain why the Germans abstained from voting in the U.N. about us recently!

[Something completely different]

Because we support the two state solution.

I may not critizise Israel but I do critizise the current goverment.