Israel

[The Grand Nudger]

Sadly, it's the case. I have Palestinian friends, they live like bugs in here. Thrown away without any kind of land just because they were in the jew's way, and now, the people who kicked them out are using their land, water, recourses & kill the fuck out of the rest of them by the end of the day..

Do you want to convince me, that hitler & the jews -during WW2- were equivalent ? he had a war going against the jews, so who's right & who's wrong ?
Us & them would mean corruption. There is no us & them, there is always "why"..
According to this, Rythem, all the casualties of war are dead for nothing ! I can't imagine that or even accept it..

No, Atlass, "according to Rhythm" a compelling case against Israel and for it's adversaries cannot be drawn by invoking a logical fallacy. TQ.

You can feel for them, empathize with them, support their goal - and simultaneously indict and criticize the manner in which some go about attempting to achieve it.

Casualties of war -are- "dead for nothing", we are the ones investing meaning and purpose to their deaths, it's not inherent or granted upon their glorious deaths in the field of battle or some-such.

[WinterHold]

Well of course you don't want to talk about Islam, because Islam is equally as guilty as the Jews on so many fronts. Are they going to give back Egypt to the Nestorian Christians? They want the land for equally religious reasons. The whole problem is a problem of religion, and not just of "The Jews" as you so splendidly put it. Although it's possible to feel sorry for the Palestinians, I don't notice their Muslim neighbors opening up the doors so they can resettle in Egypt, Lebanon, etc.

The whole reason that you want to avoid the topic of Islam is that you can then just focus on the bad things that "The Jews" have done. Sorry, not going to play by your rules.

You can find out here why I didn't mention Islam :
http://atheistforums.org/thread-17232.html

In order to debate in such topics -which are supported by evidence-, you either negate that evidence with another one -accountable ; also trusted-, or declare your point of view about the evidences I brought without anything to support your claim.

Thus, your comment is a personal attack on the author, obviously without a valid evidence why I didn't mention Islam.
Though ; I have a written evidence -in the link provided above- which proves why I didn't mention Islam.

You would find that under my discussion with cato & Rhythm.

[The Grand Nudger]

Thing is Atlass if we're discussing two groups engaged in what we would both agree are acts of terrorism, to condemn the one while allowing the other a pass on the same charge is to condemn not the act, but the people. If that's how we're gonna roll we don't even have to invoke the act, just indict them on the charge of being [insert cultural/religious/political identity here].

Which, case in point, is precisely what we're doing when we say "teh jews are bad tq".

[Aractus]

Wow AtlasS, you have so many things wrong.

1) Is Israel founded based on religious views ?

Okay, here's your first problem. Is Israel founded based on religions views? What about Saudi Arabia, what about Pakistan, what about all the other Islamic States?

This is the entire problem with the "two state solution" is that it aims to cater to the demands of two RELIGIOUS States.

Have you ever heard of freedom of religion? What about separation of Church and State? Separation of Church and State simply means that the State government is not controlled by and is independent from religious structures and organizations.

From the naming of the country & its symbol, we can conclude due to symbolic evidence & Jewish/Biblical folklore that the state of Israel is a country with a "Jewish Identity", built as the modern equivalent of the ancient kingdom of Israel, which gathered the ancient Jews under one flag.

So what? Do you have any idea how many Islamic States there are??

2)The Eligibility of the jews for the land

according to the previous source, the earliest immigration to Palistine -the place which is now occupied & declared as a separate place called "Israel- was after the Spanish inquisition in the 15th century.

So what? It wasn't until the late 18th century that Australia was colonized by the Europeans. Should we pack up shop and leave so that an Aboriginal State can be established here? Should we divide the land into a two-state-solution and give 50% of Australia to aborigines?

Tell me, in how many Islamic States could Jews decide to live happily and not face persecution from the Islamic Governments?

It was then, when the civil war started between native Palestnians & immigrating Jews, with the support of the british government -and almost all of Europe- to the foreign immigrants, which caused other arab countries to support their palestinian ally.

You are unbelievable. You mean to tell us that people who have lived in the land for over 600 years you see as "foreign immigrants" and not "natives". Tell me where is their homeland then that they can return to?

one reason for arab outrage, is giving the natives 43% of the land only. The jews thought it was "a minimum" ; which supports the claim of jewish greed over the rest of the land. More information can be found here.

Yes you're right, a secular state should have been established in Israel which would have allowed both Jew and Arab to live peacefully together.

[WinterHold]

[quote='Rhythm' pid='405361' dateline='1361645808']

No, Atlass, "according to Rhythm" a compelling case against Israel and for it's adversaries cannot be drawn by invoking a logical fallacy. TQ.

You can feel for them, empathize with them, support their goal - and simultaneously indict and criticize the manner in which some go about attempting to achieve it.

Casualties of war -are- "dead for nothing", we are the ones investing meaning and purpose to their deaths, it's not inherent or granted upon their glorious deaths in the field of battle or some-such.
[/quote]

I really have nothing to say to you after this line, especially !
[quote]You can feel for them, empathize with them, support their goal - and simultaneously indict and criticize the manner in which some go about attempting to achieve it.[/quote]

A big shock for me.. for you to empathize with people who kicked millions out of their land & took it, but as we all know : nobody blamed american for taking the land from the natives

---

[quote='Aractus' pid='405438' dateline='1361664593']
Okay, here's your first problem. Is Israel founded based on religions views? What about Saudi Arabia, what about Pakistan, what about all the other Islamic States?
This is the entire problem with the "two state solution" is that it aims to cater to the demands of two RELIGIOUS States.

Aractus, I wasn't discussing Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or any other Islamic country.

The name of this topic is "Israel", so please stay in the context but if you have anything on Islam, there's a whole section for that, you can write there whatever you want..

And I'm a number one hater for saudi arabia, mate : ) revise my posts.. again, this is a topic about israel, so please stay within the context.

[quote]Have you ever heard of freedom of religion? What about separation of Church and State? Separation of Church and State simply means that the State government is not controlled by and is independent from religious structures and organizations.[/quote]

You keep forgetting that Jews are immigrants.. you were nagging in another topic about muslim immigrations to the west !

do you like if we muslims invaded your country by immigration & started to tell you what to do or how to run your country ? obviously when some muslims did that, they were thrown in prison !

Sovereignty.. don't you believe in that ?



[quote]So what? Do you have any idea how many Islamic States there are??
[/quote]

...
I really don't know what to say xD..
Aractus, did you tried to overdose on weed today, because it seems that you're high !

the topic is "Israel"..

please discuss the evidence I brought : ) I'm not discussing Islam. I'm discussing invasion, mass immigrations & a religious country called Israel..

You can open up another topic about Islamic states & I would sure put my opinion

[quote]2)The Eligibility of the jews for the land

[quote]So what? It wasn't until the late 18th century that Australia was colonized by the Europeans. Should we pack up shop and leave so that an Aboriginal State can be established here? Should we divide the land into a two-state-solution and give 50% of Australia to aborigines?
[/quote]

...
Aractus, again.. You had problems with Islamic immigrations to the west. This is a confused opinion, please state what your opinion is on the immigrations.

and so what is not answer btw.

[quote]Tell me, in how many Islamic States could Jews decide to live happily and not face persecution from the Islamic Governments?[/quote]

hock:
Aractus I don't have the time to write that again, but again the topic name is israel..

[quote]You are unbelievable. You mean to tell us that people who have lived in the land for over 600 years you see as "foreign immigrants" and not "natives". Tell me where is their homeland then that they can return to?
[/quote]

so are you !
Yes they are foreign immigrants & yes, that war started after importing almost a million jew to israel to establish the kingdom of israel after the disapora !

Aractus wikipedia says this from many sources ! please what are you trying to prove ?

nobody had problems with early small immigrations, for 600 years nobody talked..

that war started after the arabs natives couldn't even find jobs from the mass jewish immigrations !

please answer the point : )

[quote]Yes you're right, a secular state should have been established in Israel which would have allowed both Jew and Arab to live peacefully together.
[/quote]

I support peace, but I don't support invasion : )

[Mystical]

Yes they are foreign immigrants & yes, that war started after importing almost a million jew to israel to establish the kingdom of israel after the disapora !

What war are you speaking of here specifically? Sorry if I missed you stating it already.

nobody had problems with early small immigrations, for 600 years nobody talked..

Please clarify for me, are you saying you have issues with a 600yr old immigration? Are you saying that those people who immigrated to Israel 600yrs ago have no land rights today and that the 600yr old descendants retain claim to that land?

that war started after the arabs natives couldn't even find jobs from the mass jewish immigrations !

Specify the war you're speaking of please.

I really have nothing to say to you after this line, especially !

What are your oppositions to his statements?

According to this, Rythem, all the casualties of war are dead for nothing ! I can't imagine that or even accept it..

In my humble opinion: I agree that perhaps they are dead for nothing, as there will never be a resolution for either side. To go on killing on both sides over a 600yr old land dispute is what makes the casualties dead for nothing in the first place since it's obviously not feasable (short of genocide) for millions of people to uproot. The way I see it, any future killing is also for nothing. In my eyes the only way to make any past deaths worth anything is if the war stops peacefully. And it will never stop so long as Religion has anything to say about it, as these nations are obviously founded on religion as you have stated. Non-secular resolution is the only solution, as I see it.

[Aractus]

Aractus, I wasn't discussing Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or any other Islamic country.

The name of this topic is "Israel", so please stay in the context but if you have anything on Islam, there's a whole section for that, you can write there whatever you want..

And I'm a number one hater for saudi arabia, mate : ) revise my posts.. again, this is a topic about israel, so please stay within the context.

And the only part of Israel which concerns you is their occupation of Jerusalem. Jerusalem has been inhabited by Jewish people for at least 3,000 years, and by Israelites for 2,000 years before that.

You keep forgetting that Jews are immigrants.. you were nagging in another topic about muslim immigrations to the west !

They've lived in the land of Israel for 600 years, they are not immigrants or lesser citizens.

Aractus, again.. You had problems with Islamic immigrations to the west. This is a confused opinion, please state what your opinion is on the immigrations.

I don't have a problem with Islamic immigrations. I have a problem with Islam, if it were up to me Islam would be banned in Australia.

Yes they are foreign immigrants & yes, that war started after importing almost a million jew to israel to establish the kingdom of israel after the disapora !

Aractus wikipedia says this from many sources ! please what are you trying to prove ?

nobody had problems with early small immigrations, for 600 years nobody talked..

that war started after the arabs natives couldn't even find jobs from the mass jewish immigrations !

please answer the point : )

Don't dance about the point. They've lived in Israel for 600 years, they are now inhabitants of the land, no longer are they immigrants, understand?

I support peace, but I don't support invasion : )

My proposal would be to abolish Jordan and Israel both and create a new secular State with a constitutional separation of Church and State and which comprises the entire region. Sound fair to you?

[Dee Dee Ramone]

Aractus, how can you write this on the same page? Are you serious about banning a religion ánd freedom of religion?

Have you ever heard of freedom of religion?

I don't have a problem with Islamic immigrations. I have a problem with Islam, if it were up to me Islam would be banned in Australia.

Tell me, in how many Islamic States could Jews decide to live happily and not face persecution from the Islamic Governments

And just to twist this around, why can't Muslims decide to live happily and not face persecution from the Jewish Government in Israel?

[A Theist]

[quote='Rhythm' pid='405361' dateline='1361645808']

---

No, Atlass, "according to Rhythm" a compelling case against Israel and for it's adversaries cannot be drawn by invoking a logical fallacy. TQ.

You can feel for them, empathize with them, support their goal - and simultaneously indict and criticize the manner in which some go about attempting to achieve it.

Casualties of war -are- "dead for nothing", we are the ones investing meaning and purpose to their deaths, it's not inherent or granted upon their glorious deaths in the field of battle or some-such.

---

---

I really have nothing to say to you after this line, especially !

You can feel for them, empathize with them, support their goal - and simultaneously indict and criticize the manner in which some go about attempting to achieve it.

A big shock for me.. for you to empathize with people who kicked millions out of their land & took it, but as we all know : nobody blamed american for taking the land from the natives

---

---

---

Okay, here's your first problem. Is Israel founded based on religions views? What about Saudi Arabia, what about Pakistan, what about all the other Islamic States?
This is the entire problem with the "two state solution" is that it aims to cater to the demands of two RELIGIOUS States.

---

Aractus, I wasn't discussing Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or any other Islamic country.

The name of this topic is "Israel", so please stay in the context but if you have anything on Islam, there's a whole section for that, you can write there whatever you want..

---

And I'm a number one hater for saudi arabia, mate : ) revise my posts.. again, this is a topic about israel, so please stay within the context.

Have you ever heard of freedom of religion? What about separation of Church and State? Separation of Church and State simply means that the State government is not controlled by and is independent from religious structures and organizations.

---

---

You keep forgetting that Jews are immigrants.. you were nagging in another topic about muslim immigrations to the west !

do you like if we muslims invaded your country by immigration & started to tell you what to do or how to run your country ? obviously when some muslims did that, they were thrown in prison !

Sovereignty.. don't you believe in that ?

So what? Do you have any idea how many Islamic States there are??

---

...


the topic is "Israel"..

please discuss the evidence I brought : ) I'm not discussing Islam. I'm discussing invasion, mass immigrations & a religious country called Israel..

You can open up another topic about Islamic states & I would sure put my opinion

---

2)The Eligibility of the jews for the land

[quote]So what? It wasn't until the late 18th century that Australia was colonized by the Europeans. Should we pack up shop and leave so that an Aboriginal State can be established here? Should we divide the land into a two-state-solution and give 50% of Australia to aborigines?

...
Aractus, again.. You had problems with Islamic immigrations to the west. This is a confused opinion, please state what your opinion is on the immigrations.

and so what is not answer btw.

Tell me, in how many Islamic States could Jews decide to live happily and not face persecution from the Islamic Governments?

hock:
Aractus I don't have the time to write that again, but again the topic name is israel..

You are unbelievable. You mean to tell us that people who have lived in the land for over 600 years you see as "foreign immigrants" and not "natives". Tell me where is their homeland then that they can return to?

so are you !
Yes they are foreign immigrants & yes, that war started after importing almost a million jew to israel to establish the kingdom of israel after the disapora !

Aractus wikipedia says this from many sources ! please what are you trying to prove ?

nobody had problems with early small immigrations, for 600 years nobody talked..

that war started after the arabs natives couldn't even find jobs from the mass jewish immigrations !

please answer the point : )

Yes you're right, a secular state should have been established in Israel which would have allowed both Jew and Arab to live peacefully together.

I support peace, but I don't support invasion : )

---

the topic is "Israel"..

please discuss the evidence I brought : ) I'm not discussing Islam. I'm discussing invasion, mass immigrations & a religious country called Israel..

Aractus, I wasn't discussing Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or any other Islamic country.

The name of this topic is "Israel", so please stay in the context Big Grin but if you have anything on Islam, there's a whole section for that, you can write there whatever you want..

In other words, just let you rant against Israel without being challenged...

[WinterHold]

What war are you speaking of here specifically? Sorry if I missed you stating it already.

Oah no problem at all.

A revolt took place in the past against jewish immigrations & British occupation. I have provided a link which states why this revolution started & what are its causes.

Mainly, it took place after the british have allowed huge numbers of jews to immigrate to Palestine.. My point was :

If america was invaded by russia. And then, russia allowed 10,000,000 chinese immigrants to get into the states & live with the same rights of americans, wouldn't americans revolt against the invasion + these mass immigrations ?

sadly, nobody answered me..

#note : russia represents britian in the above example, america represents Palestine, Chinese immigrants represent jew immigrants.

Please clarify for me, are you saying you have issues with a 600yr old immigration? Are you saying that those people who immigrated to Israel 600yrs ago have no land rights today and that the 600yr old descendants retain claim to that land?

Matter in fact ; no. Palestine belongs to many cultures -including the jews-. Muslims didn't have any problem with that for many years.

My problem was, what happened during WW2, when the Jewish immigrations became "massive", and the Palestinians really started to feel as strangers in their own land.

The British favored the Jews & gave them all high ranking jobs, and of course rumors of the "real reasons" for the mass immigrations started to spread within arabs..

The Second Aliyah (1904–14), began after the Kishinev pogrom; some 40,000 Jews settled in Palestine, although nearly half of them left at a later point in time.[56] Both the first and second waves of migrants were mainly Orthodox Jews,[60] although the Second Aliyah included socialist groups who established the kibbutz movement.[61] During World War I, British Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour sent a letter that stated:[62]
His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."[63]

This history is on wikipedia, just type "israel".

Specify the war you're speaking of please.

It was the war of 1948.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab–Israeli_conflict

What are your oppositions to his statements?

If the same thing happened to his country, he would not emphasize with the "others".. and I also bring the previous example which I gave you.

If Russia invaded America, and declared it a national home for the Chinese without consulting the Americans, and allowed ten million chinese to immigrate to america & live there with the same civil rights. Would he emphasize with China & Russia then ?

My opposition to his statement is the double standards. Just before in a previous comment, he stated that nobody is right in wars.

Then, how is he emphasizing with the Jews, while evidence proves there was a previous & very old agreement between Jewish Zionist leadrs & british to fool the arabs & take their country ? so it was a war, really, with Jews having armed forces & militias before the war between them & the arabs even start..

Further details can be found here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Legion

In February 1915, a small committee in Alexandria approved a plan of Zeev Jabotinsky and Joseph Trumpeldor to form a Jewish military unit that would participate in the British effort to conquer Palestine from the Ottoman Empire.[1]

You see missluckie, double standards the jews started the war "literally" before any arab revolt or objection !.. then how is he emphasizing with them ?

isn't that just contradict all his posts ??

In my humble opinion: I agree that perhaps they are dead for nothing, as there will never be a resolution for either side. To go on killing on both sides over a 600yr old land dispute is what makes the casualties dead for nothing in the first place since it's obviously not feasable (short of genocide) for millions of people to uproot. The way I see it, any future killing is also for nothing. In my eyes the only way to make any past deaths worth anything is if the war stops peacefully. And it will never stop so long as Religion has anything to say about it, as these nations are obviously founded on religion as you have stated. Non-secular resolution is the only solution, as I see it.

Actually, allow me to correct something : Jews didn't fight us or even hated us in the past 600 years ; blood wasn't shed through all these years. The killing started after this took place :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Legion

So my problem with jews started after this legion was formed by zionist leaders.

Your opinion is correct ; I agree with you. The war must stop so peace can take place.