Israel

[EGross]

It's just a game and everybody is losing.

Nah. Eventually a line will be drawn, and, of course, neither side who are in the game will like it much at the beginning, but they know it needs to be done. And then, looking back, say, one generation from now, the rational people will wonder why it took so long for the game to end.

But the bullies will, of course keep saying that the result was a bad call, and will blame that for why they need to kill their own people in Syria or other countries, blaming it on the final score. But intelligent people will see that for what it is.

Despite my atheism, I still believe that order wants to be born from chaos.

[Aractus]

I have tired to write all this again, but I must be patient with you -especially you -_-" -..

I have no problem with jews in palestine.
I have a problem with this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Legion

AtlasS. Israel has a thriving democracy, the highest standard of living in the Middle East (due to their investment in infrastructure), and has a Muslim population who lives there happily in peace. Israel is everything that the Muslim countries aren't. I was discussing the Middle East with a friend of mine, his solution to the conflict is "give all the land to Israel". They have a much better record than the Arab countries, and you don't see "freedom fighters" (terrorists) coming from Israel to the West like you do with Islamic's.

So how about on the basis that the Jews have shown they build a fairer and more peaceful democratic country you support their government over the ruthlessly oppressive and anti-democratic Arab States?

[Dee Dee Ramone]

I have tired to write all this again, but I must be patient with you -especially you -_-" -..

I have no problem with jews in palestine.
I have a problem with this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Legion

AtlasS. Israel has a thriving democracy, the highest standard of living in the Middle East (due to their investment in infrastructure), and has a Muslim population who lives there happily in peace. Israel is everything that the Muslim countries aren't. I was discussing the Middle East with a friend of mine, his solution to the conflict is "give all the land to Israel". They have a much better record than the Arab countries, and you don't see "freedom fighters" (terrorists) coming from Israel to the West like you do with Islamic's.

So how about on the basis that the Jews have shown they build a fairer and more peaceful democratic country you support their government over the ruthlessly oppressive and anti-democratic Arab States?

Israel systematically oppresses the palestines, deny their civil rights, violates international law, use heavy weapons in high-densed areas, steals water of the Jordan river.

Gaza is a prison Aractus, you are aware of that? Remember the Gaza war in 2008? Nice democracy.

[WinterHold]

Atlass...everyone's people went through alot, and that's only the myopic view.....we're all the same people in the first damned place.

I just didn't mention the Arabic society in details & the level of hideosity it reached, but I assure you we don't live on the same planet me & you. The arabic society -in almost every middle eastern country- is an inhuman society, based on many bad ideas & just crazy elements that you won't even believe.

On the standard of living, Egypt for example is a dumpster now, egyptian citizens are not allowed in many hotels because "their filth might hurt the western tourists", pollution is everywhere even in your own food & water, without a drug it's almost impossible to live & stay sane.

Your opinion worths nothing in arab countries ; you as a person worth nothing, back in saudi arabia, Americans used to get past checkpoints & even car accidents without any investigations ; while my brother was taken to jail because he was playing soccer in the street when he was a teenager..

My friend's father died because the ambulance van "missed the house" & didn't call back to check again for the address.. they just went back & left the old man dies..

And racism awaits us if we tried to immigrate.
Sorry but no ; we don't live in the same place : ) ..

An invasion, which, apparently, one side lost. This is the reality of nations. It would be much more tenable (to me) to argue that the land should go to the way that the people who currently occupy it wish for it to be. Some past slight isn't going to make a case for Palestine.

This opinion you're providing here is derived from the colonial age, it can simply be abbreviated to : "thieves have the right to keep your money forever".

None....of...which...excuses....either side...for any misdeed they commit or plan to commit in retaliation thereof.

okay okay I get your point ><
that goes on civilians only ; but military & mossad ? I hope they burn in hell.

The crux of this entire thread has been that jews are immigrants and invaders as though this somehow weighs in on whether or not Israel has a claim to some piece of territory.

No ; I didn't write anything even similar to that. I have problems with immigrations which took place after the Jewish/British invasion of Palestine in 1915. I also provided that the jewish legion was armed & trained to kill.

The immigrations which took place after the date 1915 are my problem.

It does, Isrealis and Palestinians.

I withdraw my apology.

I guess I'll keep hammering this until it sticks - even if you built a mountain of well supported statements, invoking tq renders the lot useless for constructing a compelling case.

I understand what you're doing, I have read the link many many times. Though I consider this act mutual.. If you're trying to disprove this topic by pointing to the contradictions in the author's pov, is nothing more than personalizing the issue & makes us go into these riddles..

You're using TQ because you didn't understand who I'm or what I want with these topics ; even though I have mentioned it in a previous post.

I'll also hammer this until it sticks .. I care not about anything but the information. As long it's valid, as long it's trusted, as long it's a real evidence, I post it. You then come, read, leave. My info would then ring a bell in your mind when Israel fucks you someday like it did to me : )

matter in fact, I care -as an author- about one thing only : is that you -as a reader- revise the sources I have brought & believe that they did actually happen ; that's it.

The posts then are a personal discussion with me ; Rhythm. They represent nothing at all. Many times I have said : don't take me as a representative of Islam on this forum, because those opinions which I provided in some posts are very personal without a real valid evidence .

Topics are something else ; especially like this one.

Right now, all I see is a denial for the crimes which Israel did. No member - but one- have stated that this topic is valid & the info in it are really valid. It's almost like everybody is trying to justify what Israel did, while my topic was never about justifying.. it was all about "this country did this & this & this to the arabs ; which most of them were civilians."..

Posts ? screw posts.. that's me ; my words & my opinions. The topic ? it's all wikipedia.

I hope you got my point.

Of course not, but my being cruel wouldn't excuse others for being cruel either......TQ

What if your cruelty was extreme to a way that gets people into a state of shock & depression which might lead them to blow themselves eventually in your face ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/emotional_he...ock1.shtml

Psychological shock can occur after a physically or emotionally traumatic experience but it effects your state of mind (although this can give you symptoms such as palpitations and feeling faint, it doesn’t usually lead to serious physical collapse).

In many videos I saw about Israel, the state of shock which many children suffer from after campaigns like "ghaza war" does actually turn them insane -science agrees with me on this-.

You can also keep wondering why suicide bombers are mostly from countries which war has touched in a very brutal way..

I can imagine what might happen to my mind, if your crulty took away all my family & friends with a single air strike "mistake".. tell that to the Iraqies who went into hellholes like "abo-ghuraib prison".

It's unwise from you to underestimate the effects your cruelty.

Meh, I can understand that you have a narrative about the west and westerners and jews that would likely lead you to that conclusion, sure. You could have just asked, of course. Whether or not air superiority is leveraged to maintain a claim of territory has very little to say about whether or not I agree with the claim to territory.

meh ><

Not an islamic state? So what? That's classic us and them. It's ridiculous, and case in point - is perpetuating the scenario that you're talking about. Of course it doesn't help that the only resolution you seem to be able to conceive of is total victory for "us" and utter defeat for "them".

Oh no, it's something more like justice. You see, I categorize crimes to pick a side ; the side which enforce the lesser crimes is that part I favor. That's why I always thought that native americans were better than the conquistadors, the first crusaders were better than the Muslims of that time..

One reason which makes me stand with the west against al-qaida for example. It also why I think women are better than men ; the total count of crimes which men are most likely to practice are more than women's.

totally different mentalities , mine & yours.

See why removing religion is crucial to solving a political problem? How do you propose to solve a political problem if you can't even begin to work past religion? Jewish this, muslim that, it's all nonsense - and doesn't belong in a discussion about a nation or it's policies and future when the stakes and outcomes are literally life and death - feast and famine. I don't consult Grimms Fairy Tales before going to war - and it doesn't have any weight in the decision-. Personally, I feel that anyone who does so or cannot help but to invoke the same does not need to be and does not deserve to be a part of that conversation. Down this road lay only tears.

You're an atheist & I'm a Muslim.. of course you wouldn't consult god as I do !

That's your own personal view. I also think that a person, who doesn't believe that some parts commit more crimes in wars and that all are the same, is also a person I wouldn't share a conversation about mutual peace with.

My religion teaches me to admit my mistakes ; but the other part must do the same. Equality is impossible in conflicts ; some part is always more or less human than the other.

How measure it ? measure the crimes of war.. something you might feel when you see Hitler's history for example.

---

I'm clearly not getting any traction here, I'm not sure why, but lets approach this from a different angle.

Me too

Are you prepared to call for the return of all lands invaded, occupied by, or massively immigrated into, by islamic people to their native inhabitants?

Yes. Islam cannot be forced you know god doesn't accept the religion of somebody who is forced. The quran did state that in many, many verses.

Does the murder of anyone or group of people in the past or present by islamic people excuse those people (or anyone else) for killing muslims in the past or present?

If it was their lands, yes.. karma. Al-Qaida..afghanistan

Saddam..Iraq.

But civilian killings ?? NO. Nothing justifies that.. Israeli civilians are also included in this rule without any biasing ..

[EGross]

Gaza is a prison Aractus, you are aware of that? Remember the Gaza war in 2008? Nice democracy.

Actually, Gaza was handed over to Fatah by Israel as part of the "peace deal", and was taken over by Hamas and is their capital, from which they fired millions of dollars of missiles into Israel rather than building an infrastructure to make a home.

Prison? Apartheid? Think.

[Dee Dee Ramone]

Think yourself, Israel has extensive control over Gaza, through the blockade. If the Palestines have total self control over that area, then why doesn't Netanyahu accept the Palestines request for membership at the UN?
I know Hamas is insane and spends money on those rockets. But your government uses much heavier weapons in urban Gaza and also spends millions of dollars killing much more Palestines. So in that way, Netanyahu is no better than Hamas. The infrastructure to which you refer, is also systematically destroyed by your government.

So you say Arabs and Jews have the same rights in Israel?

[WinterHold]

AtlasS. Israel has a thriving democracy, the highest standard of living in the Middle East (due to their investment in infrastructure), and has a Muslim population who lives there happily in peace. Israel is everything that the Muslim countries aren't. I was discussing the Middle East with a friend of mine, his solution to the conflict is "give all the land to Israel". They have a much better record than the Arab countries, and you don't see "freedom fighters" (terrorists) coming from Israel to the West like you do with Islamic's.

So how about on the basis that the Jews have shown they build a fairer and more peaceful democratic country you support their government over the ruthlessly oppressive and anti-democratic Arab States?

Aractus, the media doesn't tell you anything useful about this , remember the australian prisoner who got fucked in israeli prisons & died from torture -prisoner X-.. here's an example for the democracy you mentioned :

---

Gaza is a prison Aractus, you are aware of that? Remember the Gaza war in 2008? Nice democracy.

Actually, Gaza was handed over to Fatah by Israel as part of the "peace deal", and was taken over by Hamas and is their capital, from which they fired millions of dollars of missiles into Israel rather than building an infrastructure to make a home.

Prison? Apartheid? Think.

Typical Israeli, I'm shocked actually..

I brought some really nice youtube videos from your perfect oasis ..








And of course; my favorite "act of democracy" :

[The Grand Nudger]

I just didn't mention the Arabic society in details & the level of hideosity it reached, but I assure you we don't live on the same planet me & you. The arabic society -in almost every middle eastern country- is an inhuman society, based on many bad ideas & just crazy elements that you won't even believe.

Well, we do live on the same planet, come on now. Fortunately I exist in a lull between bouts of "hideosity" directed at me and mine. I don't personally live in an inhuman society - which is a fortunate accident of my birth, but I can tell you about places I've been and things I've seen that reach the level that you're likely to be fretting over. My ancestors did live in a great many "inhuman societies- before i got the better end of that stick, and who knows, my descendants may find themselves there again (I'd like to think not). Bad ideas and crazy elements aren't hard to accept at all Atlasss. You've offered one bad idea here, and supported it with crazy elements.

On the standard of living, Egypt for example is a dumpster now, egyptian citizens are not allowed in many hotels because "their filth might hurt the western tourists", pollution is everywhere even in your own food & water, without a drug it's almost impossible to live & stay sane.

Sounds shitty, I guess egyptians put their money on the wrong horse eh?

Your opinion worths nothing in arab countries ; you as a person worth nothing, back in saudi arabia, Americans used to get past checkpoints & even car accidents without any investigations ; while my brother was taken to jail because he was playing soccer in the street when he was a teenager..

You're not making me look forward to adding any extra "arab countries" to the world.....in any case, I can probably find you somebody here in the US with a similar story, "walking while black".

My friend's father died because the ambulance van "missed the house" & didn't call back to check again for the address.. they just went back & left the old man dies..

That one could probably happen here too, though they maintain contact and at least try to find the place. They still may not find the addy or get to you in time - but they'd try. Makes me wonder how many people pass away with an ambulance en route because someone missed the address.

And racism awaits us if we tried to immigrate.
Sorry but no ; we don't live in the same place : ) ..

No, we clearly don't live in the same place. You appear to be living in Shitsbekistan. Personally, I'd take racism over any of what you mentioned above. That said, you could probably avoid the majority of the racism you expect if you emigrated to the US by not emigrating to Valdosta Georgia, for example.

This opinion you're providing here is derived from the colonial age, it can simply be abbreviated to : "thieves have the right to keep your money forever".

Well, more accurately, my opinion is that nations exist. How they came to exist differs from one to the next, but here they are and since they're here dredging up a blood feud will always take a backseat to handling things like civilized human beings. Part of doing this is a willingness to compromise. Discussing the details of a duel between two warring tribes ad infinitum isn't going to help if the aim is to move forward.

okay okay I get your point ><
that goes on civilians only ; but military & mossad ? I hope they burn in hell.

Sure, as long as you're also looking forward to the soldiers of your own side burning in hell then I wouldn't give you any shit for that. If you weren't, I'd give you shit for it, but that's not really going to have much of an effect on your torture fantasies.

No ; I didn't write anything even similar to that. I have problems with immigrations which took place after the Jewish/British invasion of Palestine in 1915. I also provided that the jewish legion was armed & trained to kill.

The immigrations which took place after the date 1915 are my problem.

Right, again, immigrants and invaders.

I withdraw my apology.

Unsurprising.

I understand what you're doing, I have read the link many many times. Though I consider this act mutual.. If you're trying to disprove this topic by pointing to the contradictions in the author's pov, is nothing more than personalizing the issue & makes us go into these riddles..

"Trying" isn't the word. You invoked a logical fallacy, I do not have to do anything to "disprove" your pov - you handled that - and continue to handle that- all by yourself.

You're using TQ because you didn't understand who I'm or what I want with these topics ; even though I have mentioned it in a previous post.

You need to read the link again then, because that's not TQ.

I'll also hammer this until it sticks .. I care not about anything but the information. As long it's valid, as long it's trusted, as long it's a real evidence, I post it. You then come, read, leave. My info would then ring a bell in your mind when Israel fucks you someday like it did to me : )

Broken record. Wouldn't matter if Israel -did- fuck you (which I greatly doubt), if this is the justification or defense for some misdeed on your part or the part of others it would again be TQ.

matter in fact, I care -as an author- about one thing only : is that you -as a reader- revise the sources I have brought & believe that they did actually happen ; that's it.

The recent history of the middle east is a sordid affair - bit like a crowd of villains standing around pointing the finger at each other while they pull the trigger - with another set of villains standing outside that circle feeding warring factions resources for their own benefit. Who was unclear on this?

The posts then are a personal discussion with me ; Rhythm. They represent nothing at all. Many times I have said : don't take me as a representative of Islam on this forum, because those opinions which I provided in some posts are very personal without a real valid evidence .

I'm not taking you as representative of islam.

What if your cruelty was extreme to a way that gets people into a state of shock & depression which might lead them to blow themselves eventually in your face ?

TQ. A sturdy diagnosis might lessen culpability, but my actions would not. I hope you aren't hinting that terrorists, for example, are victims? I would be likely to agree...victims of their handlers.

In many videos I saw about Israel, the state of shock which many children suffer from after campaigns like "ghaza war" does actually turn them insane -science agrees with me on this-.

Yep, yep, that's where you were going, oh boy.

You can also keep wondering why suicide bombers are mostly from countries which war has touched in a very brutal way..

Vae victus.

I can imagine what might happen to my mind, if your crulty took away all my family & friends with a single air strike "mistake".. tell that to the Iraqies who went into hellholes like "abo-ghuraib prison".

It's unwise from you to underestimate the effects your cruelty.

TQ. Not that I don't sympathize, not that I don't understand - but it's still TQ.

Oh no, it's something more like justice. You see, I categorize crimes to pick a side ; the side which enforce the lesser crimes is that part I favor. That's why I always thought that native americans were better than the conquistadors, the first crusaders were better than the Muslims of that time..

I doubt that this is what you have done at all. Maybe I'm wrong, but in light of all these responses and our conversation it wouldn't hurt to take a cold hard look inward and ask yourself some brutally honest "soul searching" questions about the nature and basis of your clear hatred for Israel and teh jews. It might be that your position arose from a clear head but unfortunately coincides in every detail (that you've cared to express thusfar) with the position of bigotry, racism, and extremism.

One reason which makes me stand with the west against al-qaida for example. It also why I think women are better than men ; the total count of crimes which men are most likely to practice are more than women's.

totally different mentalities , mine & yours.

Well..lol, I don't know that A-Q has actually tallied up more crimes then the west et-al , but to be fair, we had a head start. Similarly I doubt that this division of criminality between the sexes has much meat on it's bones. Men do seem to be more likely to commit this or that crime, but whether or not it's because they're male - as opposed to a complex and vast set of circumstances- is probably beyond the scope of this discussion.

Our mentalities are likely to be very similar Atlass, just because I call TQ and chide your favorite horse doesn't mean that I'm any better myself, or that I don't fall prey to the same type of shit. I did, once upon a time, wear a patch and crossed rifles. The trick, is to identify when you're bullshitting yourself.

You're an atheist & I'm a Muslim.. of course you wouldn't consult god as I do !

Right, you believe and I don't, but the status of your belief and my ack thereof is independent of whether or not consulting god is a good idea in such matters.

That's your own personal view. I also think that a person, who doesn't believe that some parts commit more crimes in wars and that all are the same, is also a person I wouldn't share a conversation about mutual peace with.

All are the same in war, relative amount or severity of any given warcrime (which is not war) doesn't excuse another of their own. Discussing which side is the lesser of two pieces of shit on those grounds has exactly what value to a conversation about mutual peace?

My religion teaches me to admit my mistakes ; but the other part must do the same. Equality is impossible in conflicts ; some part is always more or less human than the other.

How measure it ? measure the crimes of war.. something you might feel when you see Hitler's history for example.

Both sides are equally human at all times. How could they be anything but what they are? You know, you do see words like inhuman tossed around with regards to things like the Holocaust. That's a fairly hefty amount of hyperbole, there was nothing about the holocaust that was anything less than entirely human. Some of us (and largely for cultural and religious reasons- though in many cases the underlying cultural and religious reasons themselves have faded while the opinion remains) feel the need to segregate the horrible shit humans do as somehow inhuman, and the good things as somehow more human or humane. Just look at the opposing definitions for the two words, one side contains all the shit we don't like about ourselves and the other all the shit that we do. Two sides of the same human coin.

Again, if step one is to paint Israelis or jews as "less human", your argument is stillborn, and again...appears to be little more than run of the mill bigotry.

Yes. Islam cannot be forced you know god doesn't accept the religion of somebody who is forced. The quran did state that in many, many verses.

What the quran states and what islamic cultures have done are often diametrically opposed. Of course islam can be (and has been) forced. But I'm glad to see that you're willing to call for this. Now the vast majority of you need to pack up your shit and get the fuck out of the entirety of the middle east. You do realize that you are immigrants and invaders, correct?

If it was their lands, yes.. karma. Al-Qaida..afghanistan

Saddam..Iraq.

But civilian killings ?? NO. Nothing justifies that.. Israeli civilians are also included in this rule without any biasing ..

TQ, and a bare invocation of it. It doesn't matter who's land it was, or whose land it now is. Whether you're killing soldiers or civilians, it will still be TQ. Don't get me wrong, justifications for war and violence are (and have very often been) TQ - that's just something we do, doesn't make it a good idea. Like I said above, gotta have some way to know when you're bullshitting yourself - I think it might help us to make better decisions. I won't shed a tear over soldiers that fought for one side or another personally, having been one, but I'm not going to begrudge you or their families for doing so. Civilians, meh, depends on the civilian. You already know that I hold no special regard for the meatsheild variety.

[EGross]

I know Hamas is insane and spends money on those rockets. But your government uses much heavier weapons in urban Gaza and also spends millions of dollars killing much more Palestines. .

So you say Arabs and Jews have the same rights in Israel?

I am saying that Israeli Arabs have the freedom to be doctors, vote, start a business, and even eat a pork chop if they want, pray if they want, and celebrate their faith that infringes on no one. Compare that with our neighbors. Arab-Israelis are one of the increasing demographics because of the opportunities that are available, especially for women.

What about Hamas-based terrorists who attempt to blow things up? No, we try not to let them in. And the result of their hatred trickles down into mistrust by the Israelis of the resident Arab citizens, checking their ID's extra close and checking their vehicles extra close, because they might have a non-resident family member who has other plans. If the nut cases would get out of the way, all would be so much better.

While it isn't as equal because of the mistrust, it is still a hell of a lot better than living in Lebanon or Syria, especially for the women. The nurses in the Jerusalem hospitals have a high percentage of Islamic and Arab Christian women working in that field. The medical schools and some others have lower entrance requirements for Israeli Arabs as a way of balancing the schools.

And you are also not thinking logically. You admit that you are anti-Israel because in a war, fewer of them got killed and their weapons were more accurate. I doubt that you would have redirected your hatred had it gone the other way.

That's irrational thinking on your part. I knew participating in this thread was a mistake at the offset, and believed I would regret it. Hate usually pours out rather than having a rational discussion.

I'll stick to the athiest posts.

[The Grand Nudger]

Goddamnit, stick around, weigh in, your posts are the meatiest in the thread.
(tell me about that hilltop btw I just bought a hilltop for me and mine)