The Finnish state church is dying..

[Drich]

the Nazis treated POWs better than the Japaneese did durning WWII, but in the end I do not think anyone would have willing surrendered their freedom to the Nazis if given the choice.

hock: WTF???

Do you have any clue what the Nazis did?!? That is one of the most stupid things that I have ever heard "The Nazis weren't so bad compared to the Japanese."

puleese...

I am glad to see so many people kudoed you for your ignorance of history. I guess that means I get to call or rather show more than one of you up for being ignorant to the available evidence (the comodeity you all claim to hold so dear.) it seems to me that you all tend to prize popular thought above and beyond actual evidence, or at least one of you would have looked up Japanese brutality durning WWII. If you had this would have been the first link you saw:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

Or are you all simply saying because the majority of the 30+ million people the japs slaughtered weren't "Anglo/white" none of what they did real counts?

[EGross]

God attanding church is like God being in a Temple, or a special box or cabinet.

It's like a tardis in reverse, he's smaller on the outside than he is on the inside!

---

I am glad to see so many people kudoed you for your ignorance of history.

You are counting numbers, not horrors. Having studied both, and having gone to the largest Holocaust museum in the world (a few miles from here), where every horror described and shown in detail exceeds the numbers (the hours it would take to slowly die), is not an expression of ignorance on my part.

But given the Church's part in the the death camps, I would see why some would like to make them seem not so bad. After all, not that many really died.

[Kayenneh]

*rests head in hand and sighs
Why did this go from charlatans ripping people off and the bishops not doing anything about it due to the fear of losing their last church goers to Nazis and Japanese during WWII?

Oh, what's that Drich, wars bring out the worst in people and are always worse than times of peace? Yes, now keep to the topic instead of throwing herrings around.

---

On another note, people are reacting to this. According to Helsingin Sanomat, Finland's biggest newspaper, after the program aired, 142 people used the eroakirkosta.fi service the very next day to leave the church. This is a lot more traffic than they usually get.

[EGross]

Actually, now that I have had time to think about the logic of Drich's statement about WWII, it does make some sense. After all, If I was a Russian captured by the Japanese (more Russians died in the Pacific campaign than any other) with no Jewish connection whatsoever, going to Germany wouldn't have been as bad as remaining in a small cage where the likelyhood of dying from diarrhea and malaria was a likely end.

"Hey Ivan, we got big exchange program going on. You want in?"

But this is a distraction from the topic at had. Arguing about which enemy was worse is best served by those who have better details than I.

[Drich]

[quote='EGross' pid='407856' dateline='1362119893']
God attanding church is like God being in a Temple, or a special box or cabinet.

It's like a tardis in reverse, he's smaller on the outside than he is on the inside!

---

[quote='Drich' pid='407850' dateline='1362118653']
I am glad to see so many people kudoed you for your ignorance of history.
[/quote]

You are counting numbers, not horrors. Having studied both, and having gone to the largest Holocaust museum in the world (a few miles from here), where every horror described and shown in detail exceeds the numbers (the hours it would take to slowly die), is not an expression of ignorance on my part.

But given the Church's part in the the death camps, I would see why some would like to make them seem not so bad. After all, not that many really died.
[/quote]

Google Asian holocaust. The Japs had death camps but with out ovens and shelters (to process the dead.) their prisioners were all literally marched to death, worked to death, put in gaurded open areas and died of exposure, used as sword practice, moving target practice and on and on. (Most of which were no combatents women and children)

the germans at least pretended to go by the rules of war established in Geneva convention post WWI, they took in and accept Red cross help, and allowed relief workers to tend to the wounded and sick. The Japs took the food and medcine offered by the red cross and gave it to their troops. they cut down and shot the wounded and sick, and let the dead rot where they fell. They thought it stupid to have to abide by any type of rules of war. there was no mercy for anyone Not Japanese.

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[quote='Kayenneh' pid='407860' dateline='1362121637']
*rests head in hand and sighs
Why did this go from charlatans ripping people off and the bishops not doing anything about it due to the fear of losing their last church goers to Nazis and Japanese during WWII?

Oh, what's that Drich, wars bring out the worst in people and are always worse than times of peace? Yes, now keep to the topic instead of throwing herrings around.

---

On another note, people are reacting to this. According to Helsingin Sanomat, Finland's biggest newspaper, after the program aired, 142 people used the eroakirkosta.fi service the very next day to leave the church. This is a lot more traffic than they usually get.
[/quote]

Why are we talking about this?

Because as i pointed out to say "X" is Better than "Y" without an actual standard to compare to is foolishness.

In the example given one of you said Atheist tend to be better than the religious. Which is meaningless because that statement can literally compare any aspect of one and unfairly pair it against something completely unrelated in the other.

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[quote='EGross' pid='407878' dateline='1362126702']
[quote]Actually, now that I have had time to think about the logic of Drich's statement about WWII, it does make some sense. After all, If I was a Russian captured by the Japanese (more Russians died in the Pacific campaign than any other)[/quote]ah, no. Russia open it's war with Japan on August 8 1945, Japan surrendered (after the two bombs we droped) on August 15th 1945) In order for your statement to be true 20 million russians had to die in those 2 weeks. Or Stallin had to allow 20 million russians to die at the hands of the Japanese with out declaring war on them till 3 months after the Germans were defeated.

[quote]
with no Jewish connection whatsoever, going to Germany wouldn't have been as bad as remaining in a small cage where the likelyhood of dying from diarrhea and malaria was a likely end.

"Hey Ivan, we got big exchange program going on. You want in?"[/quote]
No Idea what any of this means.

[quote]
But this is a distraction from the topic at had. Arguing about which enemy was worse is best served by those who have better details than I.
[/quote]

The point being made between the Japs and the Nazis and religious and secular was without any true/absolute standards to compare them to is pointless. Because at best, all you are doing is selecting the least of two evils.

[Minimalist]

Good. The less of that meddlesome, psychotic wanker, the better.

Actually the death of a whole Group of Churches is never a good thing. For with the death of an entire denomination/church man's iniquity increases. At some point Man's iniquity will over flow, and God will have had enough.

It's a risk worth taking to shut you clowns up.

[Ryantology]

... you might say that they're Finnished.

[Kayenneh]

Why are we talking about this?

Because as i pointed out to say "X" is Better than "Y" without an actual standard to compare to is foolishness.

Is that so? What do you base this statement on then?

Actually the death of a whole Group of Churches is never a good thing. For with the death of an entire denomination/church man's iniquity increases. At some point Man's iniquity will over flow, and God will have had enough.

[EGross]

[quote='EGross' pid='407878' dateline='1362126702']

Actually, now that I have had time to think about the logic of Drich's statement about WWII, it does make some sense. After all, If I was a Russian captured by the Japanese with no Jewish connection whatsoever, going to Germany wouldn't have been as bad as remaining in a small cage where the likelyhood of dying from diarrhea and malaria was a likely end.

"Hey Ivan, we got big exchange program going on. You want in?"

No Idea what any of this means.

You may want to brush up on the experimentation done by the Germans. The tortures thought up by the Church paled in comparison, and both had a specific target in mind. At lease one of the tortures of the Japanese, the USA uses today. But as to the stuff that the Nazis didwas not about torture, but it went beyond that.

But in the end, the guy who is at the wrong end of it might not notice the difference.

[ATL]

Can someone please explain connection between Finnish church, Nazis and Japanese...
Aaaanyways what do you kayenneh think about, is there anything completely religious that finnish church even do? Like I never remember that they would have anywhere like teached bible as truth or anything like that? Or what do you think about it? I mean I don't think church is here really effecting a lot in negative ways. Actually I think Finland may be one of those places where I would actually say church does more good than harm, because they don't really seem to teach a lot of stuff anymore or anything. They basically just provide place to peoples to do music, spend time and so on.
Btw1 do you remember how did church here reacted when gay marriage was up? Like how did they responded and so on.
btw2 do you have any recent statistic of how many people in Finland believe in god or something like that?
btw3 it feels weird to talk English when we both are Finnish But because I can have morals without God too I can set myself to other peoples position and think that they might want to understand text also so I do so