Is the catholic church a force for good?

[Lion IRC]

Justin, Tonus, Esquilax, KichigaiNeko, Rhythm...etc

Can you please help me build a scenario in which an atheist would lay down their earthly life for no reward.
I was hoping for some more detail about motivation and background information.

Just claiming that an atheist hypothetically could do the same thing as a theist misses the point because the atheist's motivation would presumably be different.

Here's my scenario. A really really devout Christian who wants to follow Christ's example of sacrificial love (because the bible says so,) has given up their whole (adult) life to serve God. They remain celebate and gain their perceived ''purpose in life'' by doing righteous moral actions for the poor and homeless etc etc. No earthly spouse, children. No DNA to pass on. No patriotic loyalty to King and Country (man-made secular government,) This person isnt going to fight in a war because they regard murder/war as immoral. And to nullify the reward/heaven objection, I'm going to characterize them as a person who thinks they are already ''saved'' and laying down their life wouldnt make any difference to their entry into eternal life. Then, one day they have an unexpected opportunity to take the place of someone else in a hostage scenario and they die instead of the original hostage.

Now, their action is motivated by something in the (fictitious) bible, their relationship with God is imaginary according atheists. They gain nothing arising from their action. They dont even want a posthumous statue in their honor and there's no guarantee they would get a statue anyway.

Where is their atheist counterpart? And what motivation lies behind the atheists corresponding desire to take the place of the hostage?

[Ryantology]

A person who has to ask questions like that is a person who seeks scripture for a complete behavioral guideline because he can find no trace of humanity in himself.

[Lion IRC]

A person who makes motherhood statements like that needs to find some new aphorism material

Searching to find trace of humanity inside yourself? Really? That's deep!

In any case, I didnt say that person ''has to'' seek scripture to give their life meaning. They WANT to. And it's their life. Who are you to lecture them about the meaning of humanity?

[The Grand Nudger]

Justin, Tonus, Esquilax, KichigaiNeko, Rhythm...etc

Can you please help me build a scenario in which an atheist would lay down their earthly life for no reward.
I was hoping for some more detail about motivation and background information.

Just claiming that an atheist hypothetically could do the same thing as a theist misses the point because the atheist's motivation would presumably be different.

Two people can have widely divergent motivations and still manage to perform the same act.

Here's my scenario. A really really devout Christian who wants to follow Christ's example of sacrificial love (because the bible says so,) has given up their whole (adult) life to serve God. They remain celebate and gain their perceived ''purpose in life'' by doing righteous moral actions for the poor and homeless etc etc. No earthly spouse, children. No DNA to pass on. No patriotic loyalty to King and Country (man-made secular government,) This person isnt going to fight in a war because they regard murder/war as immoral. And to nullify the reward/heaven objection, I'm going to characterize them as a person who thinks they are already ''saved'' and laying down their life wouldnt make any difference to their entry into eternal life. Then, one day they have an unexpected opportunity to take the place of someone else in a hostage scenario and they die instead of the original hostage.

Now, their action is motivated by something in the (fictitious) bible, their relationship with God is imaginary according atheists. They gain nothing arising from their action. They dont even want a posthumous statue in their honor and there's no guarantee they would get a statue anyway.

Where is their atheist counterpart? And what motivation lies behind the atheists corresponding desire to take the place of the hostage?

What prevents this person with these actions from being an atheist? We lay our own lives on the line for each other with a surprising level of frequency and disregard for spiritual association. Your hypothetical christian didn't ask the person if they had accepted god as their saviour before they laid their life on the line, did they? I seem to recall having explained how easily we can sacrifice our lives without any god or god belief being behind it within the context of military action. Perhaps someone else managed to ask this question in a similar manner and I'm just painting your name over the posts in my mind? You wouldn't be repeating a question that had already been answered, ad naus style, would you?

[Ryantology]

In any case, I didnt say that person ''has to'' seek scripture to give their life meaning. They WANT to. And it's their life. Who are you to lecture them about the meaning of humanity?

Who said anything about the meaning of humanity?

I'm saying that, if one assumes that your assertions are correct, then the only important reason for a Christian to sacrifice his life to save another's is because God said you should do that. You may not agree with that statement in the accusatory form I said it, but you agree with the spirit of the statement, if you have to ask how a person could self-sacrifice without God telling you that doing so is good.

[Esquilax]

Justin, Tonus, Esquilax, KichigaiNeko, Rhythm...etc

Can you please help me build a scenario in which an atheist would lay down their earthly life for no reward.
I was hoping for some more detail about motivation and background information.

Yes, easily. I can think of numerous people I would die for in my life, and if dying meant that additional lives could be preserved or saved from danger I would do so easily.

Here's my scenario. A really really devout Christian who wants to follow Christ's example of sacrificial love (because the bible says so,) has given up their whole (adult) life to serve God. They remain celebate and gain their perceived ''purpose in life'' by doing righteous moral actions for the poor and homeless etc etc. No earthly spouse, children. No DNA to pass on. No patriotic loyalty to King and Country (man-made secular government,) This person isnt going to fight in a war because they regard murder/war as immoral. And to nullify the reward/heaven objection, I'm going to characterize them as a person who thinks they are already ''saved'' and laying down their life wouldnt make any difference to their entry into eternal life. Then, one day they have an unexpected opportunity to take the place of someone else in a hostage scenario and they die instead of the original hostage.

Now, their action is motivated by something in the (fictitious) bible, their relationship with God is imaginary according atheists. They gain nothing arising from their action. They dont even want a posthumous statue in their honor and there's no guarantee they would get a statue anyway.

You're missing the point. It's not the reward itself that's in contention; the theist and the atheist in these hypotheticals is just necessarily working under a different set of motivations. Your imagined theist who knows that he is saved is operating under the notion that his death isn't a permanent state, that dying on earth simply moves him up to paradise for eternity. His mortal life is not the end, for him; theoretically he has very little to fear from death.

Conversely, an atheist in the same situation knows that his death is the end, and there is nothing after. His sacrifice is meaningful precisely because he is giving up his continued existence for another, something the theist cannot claim. This conversation has never been about the concrete reality of the reward of heaven, but rather about how the belief in such a thing alters the way a person perceives death. What has a saved theist to fear from death? How is it a sacrifice if they give nothing up and end up better off afterward?

Where is their atheist counterpart? And what motivation lies behind the atheists corresponding desire to take the place of the hostage?

This is an odd question, and I hope you don't mean that you can't think of a reason for self sacrifice at all. That would say a lot of bad things about you. I'll answer anyway; an atheist would sacrifice themselves to save the lives of the other person, because they value life. There's no need for heaven beyond to reward them; the fact that they've helped another person is enough.

[Tonus]

This is an odd question, and I hope you don't mean that you can't think of a reason for self sacrifice at all. That would say a lot of bad things about you. I'll answer anyway; an atheist would sacrifice themselves to save the lives of the other person, because they value life. There's no need for heaven beyond to reward them; the fact that they've helped another person is enough.

Yep. This is the point. The theist has a primary and overriding motivation for self-sacrifice: it scores points with god. It's certainly possible that without the reward of eternal life in heaven, the theist would still give his life on principle, since he may feel compelled to by his beliefs. Which means that if the atheist does sacrifice himself, he makes the decision of his own volition, not because it's expected of him by god.

Thus, not only is his sacrifice greater because it is done with the knowledge that it is his final conscious act, it's greater because it's his own decision to make and driven by an ability to put aside self-interest that was not imposed upon him.

[The Grand Nudger]

The "sacrifice" is the same from either human being. You may think the motivations are of lesser value or quality, but at the end of the day, both hypothetical folks will have traded their lives for the life of another. At that point, their motivations for doing so are effectively moot. It doesn't matter, person A is dead, and because of this person B is alive. If someone took a bullet for me because they thought that god wanted them too, good for them, but more importantly, good for me. If I took a bullet for the god botherer I doubt that he would go sour grapes on my act because I thought his god was ridiculous bullshit.

[Mystical]

In any case, I didnt say that person ''has to'' seek scripture to give their life meaning. They WANT to. And it's their life. Who are you to lecture them about the meaning of humanity?

You make me giggle sir.