Colorado parents of transgender 1st-grader file complaint over restroom ban

[Violet]

No, it would teach a person who uses logic terms incorrectly to use them correctly.

Most people do not use tampons for nosebleeds, Lilly.

Not sure about that... the stupid around here lately comes in such incredible blocks that it's beginning to dull the axes hewing away at them.

Most people with penises do not wish them to be removed on a consistent basis.

It remains an applicable use of tampons, Shelly

Seriously? They were invented for that. I honestly do not care what people use tampons for, but they are designed specifically to enter a vagina and stop menstrual blood from coming out of it. I'm not entirely sure there is a "social expectation" on this topic. I'm afraid that railing against social norms where there is no morass in regard to that norm is a lot of defiance for the sake of being defiant.

Well... graham crackers were invented to curb the likes of masturbation and sexual deviancy. Quite specifically, even. And yet, this is hardly the social expectation of graham crackers.

Which is to taste nummy, and maybe build 'gingerbread' houses out of them

I certainly didn't come across my usages of tampons for 'being defiant'... bleeding out one's ass kinda sucks, and there's a saying among my family 'Well, why wouldn't that work?'. We're pretty creative in our repurposing of stuff and things.

Lilly, this is not about your schlong, honey. I am entirely certain you can contain it, but you cannot speak for everyone with a dick who wants to go into the ladies room.

And you can speak for everyone with a vagina, on a sudden? I *still* haven't head your reasoning for seeing genitals in a bathroom being damaging in and of itself.

Really, the ladies room is about the most ineffectual place for voyeurism as could be had, if that's your concern? Locker/changing rooms are much *much* better, unless someone is specifically into a voyeur golden shower fetish... which a girl can bug a women's restroom for more readily than can a man anyway

Really, on that same subject... the greater concern should be women going into the men's room, because urinals.

Anyway, I have stated my opinion and I have no desire to be agreed with an have nothing more to add. Ciao, dears. I'm off to work.

Odd, when fr0d0 does this... the people around shout 'he runs away again!'

If you're going to state your opinion, and expect it to hold any weight in a reasonable discussion: you're going to need reasons for that opinion.

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what is this thread about?

Same thing as another recent thread. People incapable of handling arguments, restating their opinions on the matter in perpetuum.

Word salad too hard to digest for the culinarily inept, they'll just go back to their simple meats, and devour regardless of the diarrhea their fiberless diet is giving them.

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

TEGH, it is not unlikely. Those gaps are massive in some places. I accidentally see shit all the time. I also suggest logic courses become mandatory for people who are going to pretend they know how to debate formally in this forum.

Let's see, I doubt any crack would be greater than half an inch. You would have get close to the crack and focus beyond it. Stalls aren't well lit. I really can't believe you've seen anything unless it was on purpose (which is not something I believe you'd do).

I've taken at least one college course that taught logic. I've studied deductive logic on my own as well from a book on logic. I've read at least two books on logical fallacies. Sure, I'm certainly not a philosopher and I plan (and need to) on studying logic much more in depth in the future but I'm not some r/atheism retard who learned a logical fallacy from a meme either.

Now the appeal to definition fallacy is as follows (taken from logicallyfallacious.com):

The dictionary definition of X does not mention Y.
Therefore Y must not be part of X.

Your argument is similar:

The men's restroom was designed with penises in mind. The women's room was designed with vaginas in mind. Therefore, humans with penises should not use women's and vice versa.

What you have failed to supply is why the intended design of something should be the final authority in all cases.

Aside from all of this, you have twice now ignored my request to explain why you think a girl seeing a penis is so harmful.

[Whateverist]

The men's restroom was designed with penises in mind. The women's room was designed with vaginas in mind. Therefore, humans with penises should not use women's and vice versa.

Not that I object to having rooms designed with my penis' comfort in mind, but it wouldn't be too great an inconvenience to use a vagina friendly room. Sure I'd miss having a place to pee with out dropping my drawers but it wouldn't completely emasculate me. If they want to put up a tampon machine in the penis room that would be okay with me too. If I don't need one, I simply won't take any.

(When you two have finished hammering out the intricacies of logical argument you should definitely publish.)

[Shell B]

I can't speak for everyone with a vagina, Lills. I have only ever spoken for myself here. I'm pretty sure that is clear in what I write. Repurposing things is wonderful. It doesn't change that tampons are for vaginas.

Whateverist, my argument does not depend whatsoever on the convenience of said rooms. I only stated that they are made with that in mind. They are not determined by clothing, but by genitals. Why this is still being argued is beyond me.

TEGH, a little girl seeing a penis before it is intended is not necessarily harmful, nor did I state that it is. Most parents would prefer not and I think I defer to them in cases of children being shown genitals.

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Now the appeal to definition fallacy is as follows (taken from logicallyfallacious.com):

The dictionary definition of X does not mention Y.
Therefore Y must not be part of X.

Your argument is similar:

The men's restroom was designed with penises in mind. The women's room was designed with vaginas in mind. Therefore, humans with penises should not use women's and vice versa.

How is that similar? Did I define the bathrooms? I'm not appealing to definition. I'm appealing to function, which has not been shown to be illogical. Furthermore, fallacy or not, you have failed to show me how that is unsound. People are always forgetting that a fallacious argument can still be a sound argument, though they typically are not. Helps if you can spot a fallacious argument, regardless.

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

You never said it was harmful. What?

ETA: Now, I do not mind if transgender individuals use the bathroom so much that I would put up a stink about civilized individuals doing it without making it obvious or making some point about it. There is no harm if no one notices. There is harm if your dick is swinging while you are peeing or you are peeing with your ass to the door, which I previously mentioned a child might easily see through unwittingly.

Do you not find it harmful for a young girl to see a penis? Well, I would rather she did not. I would rather she not see vaginas that do not belong to her, either. However, that would hardly raise the question of genitalia. Children have no reason to be concerned with this. Now, you have yet to assert your views on this. I will go no further until I am sure I am not just wasting my time debating someone who does not disagree, but rather enjoys wasting people's time by making them state every nuance of their argument for no one's benefit. It's rude. So, where do you stand or have nice day? Up to you.

[Whateverist]

Whateverist, my argument does not depend whatsoever on the convenience of said rooms. I only stated that they are made with that in mind. They are not determined by clothing, but by genitals. Why this is still being argued is beyond me.

Oh I know but I'm just having fun with the some of the images and phrases that have come up. (I've really got to remember to throw in more smilies!)I can't wait for my first real world opportunity to inquire as to the availability of a penis friendly restroom, or perhaps I should refer to it as a comfort station for my willy, or a WC for my peepee, or ... the possibilities are really endless. Oh and do let me know if you and Violet decide to take me up on my mud wrestling suggestion. Even if you're not really mad at each other I just think it would make great theatre.

[Violet]

I can't speak for everyone with a vagina, Lills. I have only ever spoken for myself here. I'm pretty sure that is clear in what I write. Repurposing things is wonderful. It doesn't change that tampons are for vaginas.

Graham crackers are for curbing masturbation?

What makes you suppose that I speak for anyone and everyone who might have a penis? If there is something wrong with the arguments I have used, I would appreciate that being your focus...

Whateverist, my argument does not depend whatsoever on the convenience of said rooms. I only stated that they are made with that in mind. They are not determined by clothing, but by genitals. Why this is still being argued is beyond me.

Because genitals are really a very small part of the human body, and public restroom social experience is governed by, well... the massive cultural and social understandings of what constitute man and woman (muscles, aggression, roles, etc). None of that concerns 'what is between your legs', and even if it did: why are transsexuals allowed to enter this room with absolutely no issue?

Further, because there are people who have genitals otherwise 'not-befitting' the room in question that still use said room... often without so much as a second glance from others in said room. The whole men go here/women go there is of cultural origin anyway, unless you can demonstrate to me that in the most primitive of conditions, we as a species segregate our bathrooming experiences like so.

I'd note, I've seen dogs of same and mixed genders take a shit/piss at about the same time, in full view of each other and humans. Cats too... somehow, I am really thinking most of this 'shame' or 'shyness at one's nude figure' stems from culture.

How is that similar? Did I define the bathrooms? I'm not appealing to definition. I'm appealing to function, which has not been shown to be illogical. Furthermore, fallacy or not, you have failed to show me how that is unsound. People are always forgetting that a fallacious argument can still be a sound argument, though they typically are not. Helps if you can spot a fallacious argument, regardless.

You did, yes... 'boy's room = penis, girl's room = vagina'... a statement you DID make, which IS a definitive statement for boy's room and girl's room.... one which has been repeatedly shown to be unsound (transsexuals, intersex individuals, drag queens, gay men not wanting to get beaten to a pulp).

Unless you'd like to retract that statement, or edit it under the evidence stacked against it's truth (say, with 'penis is part of the consideration as to who goes to which room' <--- a much more reasonable alternative to your blanket)... this conversation isn't going to go any further than that of theists asserting an unevidenced claim until people just start to ignore it.

[Shell B]

TEGH, not necessarily harmful. As in, it is not always going to be harmful. That is not a necessary result of the experience. I'm a cunt hair away from comparing the "okay, let's go ahead and sexualize children in the name of freedom" mentality here with the "children can have sex if they want to" mentality I see elsewhere. It really all comes down to whether you think it is okay for rooms where children take their clothes off to be co-ed. If you think that is okay, that is your opinion. I might point out that you have failed to demonstrate why it is okay, but I'm unlikely to get anywhere with you. *please prove me wrong*

It is impossible to carry on this conversation. Qualifiers are not there for decoration. The cherry picking I see here, along with treating off-hand comments that were actually directed to a side conversation and were not arguments for the question at hand, make it clear that we're not going to have an adult conversation. Context, vocabulary and proper usage are all parts of language. You cannot communicate well without them. I am trying very hard to convey points to you, but you are ripping little bits out of context and ignoring points. If you want to make it really simple, we can go one point at a time, properly labeling premises as premises and highlighting words that might get left out and lead to confusion, such as qualifiers. Oh, who am I kidding? No one actually wants to listen to opposing arguments here, do they?

Wrong, Lilly. It is obvious by everything about both rooms that it has to do with genitals. If it were about "gender," this would not be an issue at all. The girl would be able to use the girl's room. If said girl had no penis, there would be no distinction. It is clearly an issue of penis. How that is out of grasp here is beyond me. I cannot help anyone to understand the form and function of male and female specific bathrooms if the goal here is only to pretend they are completely arbitrary (while then saying it has to do with muscles an aggression. Bully for consistency). Oh, and we cannot brush off other definitions, but be biting sticklers for the proper use of the word gender. We're either throwing the dictionary out of the window or keeping it. Doing both is going to render me absolutely unable to communicate, as I prefer to use my imagination figuring out what the other person is saying, not how they are defining the words they are using.

Whateverist, of course I'm not mad. I find a lot of this silly and time consuming, but I'm not angry. I'm also not going to mud wrestle. I don't mean to be a bitch, but every fucking time two women debate on this forum, a guy comes in and says something about mud wrestling. Is it a little dismissive of two women possibly having opposing points without being idiotic and physical about or is that just me? I just never see women being so weird about men debating. It always comes down to mud wrestling. I'm going to start saying, "Oh, you two. Kiss, make up and have butt sex." Yep. My new favorite thing. I'm off to suggest butt sex. Laters.

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You did, yes... 'boy's room = penis, girl's room = vagina'... a statement you DID make, which IS a definitive statement for boy's room and girl's room.... one which has been repeatedly shown to be unsound (transsexuals, intersex individuals, drag queens, gay men not wanting to get beaten to a pulp).

Unless you'd like to retract that statement, or edit it under the evidence stacked against it's truth (say, with 'penis is part of the consideration as to who goes to which room' <--- a much more reasonable alternative to your blanket)... this conversation isn't going to go any further than that of theists asserting an unevidenced claim until people just start to ignore it.

Why would I retract it? Saying that a men's room is made for people with penises is not defining a bathroom. It is stating the fucking obvious. Man=penis, Woman=vagina. Would you not argue that your proper genitalia would be a vagina and you are rather consumed by that notion? Well, if you want to retract your belief that you should have a vagina because you are a woman, we can go back and redefine what makes a lady a lady and then redefine what makes it a ladies room. If you want to say I was appealing to the definition of boy and the definition of girl, you can go right ahead and say that. I was. I was not appealing to the gender specific definition of the restroom, but rather describing its function and using that in my argument. Now, you can also go right ahead and tell me what is unsound about an argument that appeals to a definition, because if we are not claiming the argument is unsound, then we are off on a goose chase . . . again. What is the point of saying it is an appeal to this or that if you cannot say why that is wrong or correct? It's just another waste of time.

[John V]

Would you not argue that your proper genitalia would be a vagina and you are rather consumed by that notion? Well, if you want to retract your belief that you should have a vagina because you are a woman, we can go back and redefine what makes a lady a lady and then redefine what makes it a ladies room.

Bingo.

[frankiej]

Why can't we all just piss and shit together? We could even all hold hands while we do it.