are vegetarians more ethical by not eating meat?

[Sal]

Our ethics here come from our empathy. We know animals suffer like we do. Therefore we can't justify causing them suffering without good reason. Modern food production has removed us from that choice pretty much. We don't see it, so it didn't happen.

That's the age-old "out of sight, out of mind". A lot of people don't realize or don't think much of the lengths of production that went into a slab of steak in the grocery store.

[little_monkey]

I don't think the argument has ever been that killing for food is always wrong. What we have is a viable choice not to do it. It becomes ethically wrong to cause suffering when there is no need. If I'm starving, would I eat you to keep alive. Maybe.

Our ethics here come from our empathy. We know animals suffer like we do. Therefore we can't justify causing them suffering without good reason. Modern food production has removed us from that choice pretty much. We don't see it, so it didn't happen.

If you'd lived on a farm, you would see slaughtering on a day-to-day basis. Are farmers more vegan than the rest of society? I think not. My parents lived on the farm. My mother use to slaughter a chicken just about every week, and once in a while a pig, rabbits or even a calf. We celebrate that by giving a big feast, and everybody enjoyed, even though the blood was still staining the floor in some parts of the farm.

[fr0d0]

I live in a rural area. I came from the suburbs. My position on hunting etc has changed. Yes you would eat meat on a farm because it's easier. Less work for more protein. And you can get it cheaper. I would say it's more ethically justified when you know first hand the suffering that you're causing. Not quite justified, but a lot better. At least you aren't shielded from the harsh reality. Maybe the celebration/feast was to make amends for the sacrifice the animal made. We're approaching ethical there.

[littleendian]

My mother use to slaughter a chicken just about every week, and once in a while a pig, rabbits or even a calf. We celebrate that by giving a big feast, and everybody enjoyed, even though the blood was still staining the floor in some parts of the farm.

I'm trying to imagine being in your shoes, seeing my mom butcher a calf when I was a kid... I suspect it would've fundamentally affected many aspects of my personal development... I would find any thoughts you might want to share on this highly fascinating

Maybe the celebration/feast was to make amends for the sacrifice the animal made.

That's a euphemism, the animal did not "sacrifice" itself, it was killed, plain and simple. It will be the day that evolution is proven wrong when you can say the animal was "okay" with this.

[fr0d0]

I didn't mean the animal. I meant the people making amends for the suffering they just caused to a fellow sentient being.

Primitive people have rituals where they tell the story of the kill. It's a shocking act that would trouble you. I think the primitive response is natural.

[littleendian]

I didn't mean the animal. I meant the people making amends for the suffering they just caused to a fellow sentient being.

Okay, but they didn't make a sacrifice either, they just had dinner and a party. This entire "sacrifice" thing is nothing but another Christian deepity.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's a bit older than christianity....a -bit-. lol. As much as it pains me to see Frodo get something right (I knew it would happen if I just waited long enough - success!), there is no shortages of rituals, myths, legends, rites, and superstitious this or that's that do nothing at all -except- express the reverence that people felt for the creature and process that put the dinner on the table. This current in our psyche persists to this very day. I was raised to be disgusted by trophy hunting - but to be appreciative of hunting for dinner - and respectful to the animal that was going to get the sharp end of a short stick.

Rats with horns lives were given a value- and if anyone in my family went around shooting animals for the fuck of it (squirrels -sometimes- excluded) they'd be stared at like a deviant at the dinner table they weren't invited to.

[LastPoet]

You know Rhythm its just as hard to get everything right as is getting everything wrong

[littleendian]

At least you aren't shielded from the harsh reality.

Except in the case of us well-fed, modern westerners it's not a "harsh reality" we just have to deal with because we can't change it, it's simply our choice.

[The Grand Nudger]

Again, to stress something I've been hammering - there's plenty of "harsh reality" in our bean salad that we aren't exposed to as well. It's perhaps even easier to ignore this because we focus on the bean - something so different from us it's no wonder we don't feel empathy for it - rather than the process which brought it to the table (which many probably could not bear to watch any more than they could watch security cam footage at a slaughterhouse).