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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 19, 2013 at 5:21 pm
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2013 at 5:23 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Some design, some designer. Attempts to build a blow drier, ends up with a toilet.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 19, 2013 at 5:42 pm
Quote:Everything was good until Adam and Eve sinned.
How come your fucking "god" didn't know that was going to happen?
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 19, 2013 at 7:01 pm
(March 19, 2013 at 5:09 pm)Godschild Wrote: Everything was good until Adam and Eve sinned. Creation worked just as it was designed, it did not work as God desired it to.
I buy a TV, and it stops working after a week. The manufacturer seems unfazed. " It was good until it broke, right? It worked as designed, although we didn't want it to break. Not our fault, blame the TV."
To summarize: God creates Eden, and places Adam and Eve within its borders. He specifically designs them so that they can disobey his commands, then places a tree in Eden whose only purpose is to provide Adam and Eve with an easy way to sin. He designs Eve so that she can be deceived by a talking snake (if you believe Paul) and then... he allows a talking snake into Eden.
I'd conclude that with " you can't make this stuff up," but yeah... someone did. Although in fairness, the author of the Genesis 1:1-2:3 version of the creation story doesn't offer any such nonsense. As it seems that his version was actually written after the Yahwist's version, one can imagine that even back in the 6th and 7th century BC, people realized that the story was just awful. If you'd told them that 2,600 years later people would still be trying to make sense of it, they might have burned the whole mess and set humanity forward by a few centuries.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 20, 2013 at 10:44 pm
(March 19, 2013 at 7:01 pm)Tonus Wrote: (March 19, 2013 at 5:09 pm)Godschild Wrote: Everything was good until Adam and Eve sinned. Creation worked just as it was designed, it did not work as God desired it to.
I buy a TV, and it stops working after a week. The manufacturer seems unfazed. "It was good until it broke, right? It worked as designed, although we didn't want it to break. Not our fault, blame the TV."
To summarize: God creates Eden, and places Adam and Eve within its borders. He specifically designs them so that they can disobey his commands, then places a tree in Eden whose only purpose is to provide Adam and Eve with an easy way to sin. He designs Eve so that she can be deceived by a talking snake (if you believe Paul) and then... he allows a talking snake into Eden.
I'd conclude that with "you can't make this stuff up," but yeah... someone did. Although in fairness, the author of the Genesis 1:1-2:3 version of the creation story doesn't offer any such nonsense. As it seems that his version was actually written after the Yahwist's version, one can imagine that even back in the 6th and 7th century BC, people realized that the story was just awful. If you'd told them that 2,600 years later people would still be trying to make sense of it, they might have burned the whole mess and set humanity forward by a few centuries.
You bought a TV and it made the decision to break, the manufacturer knows it could do this and wasn't caught off guard. It was perfect until it made a decision to short to ground. It worked fine until it made the decision to break, it did have the chose to act that way, we would have preferred it hadn't and so on and so on...
You can't change the facts of a story to fit your needs, I used exactly what scripture gives us you should try and do the same. As for your little idea about the origins of scripture give me the proof.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 20, 2013 at 11:18 pm
Quote:You bought a TV and it made the decision to break
Inanimate objects can not make decisions.
Sometimes, shit just happens. A tv manufacturer most likely has an estimate on the likelihood of any electronic component failing within the warranty period. A god should be able to do better.
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 21, 2013 at 2:00 am
MTBF
.
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 21, 2013 at 4:50 am
(This post was last modified: March 21, 2013 at 4:51 am by EGross.)
(March 19, 2013 at 5:42 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Quote:Everything was good until Adam and Eve sinned.
How come your fucking "god" didn't know that was going to happen?
It's the perfect "There is no such thing as free will" story.
After the sin, man has to get a job, woman will have birth pains, and serpent will be a giant phallus. End of punishment.
What really was the game changer was when God confirmed that the serpent did not lie by saying "Oh shit! We left that other tree out there. If they eat that, they will become like us. We can't let them choose! Get their asses out of here!"
Yeah, first you got a heavenly crowd having this conversation, and God as an afterthought remembering about that other tree, and then deciding to be like someone's drunken dad "Ow! What'd you hit me for?!?" "I'm the dad, that's why!"
So screw you Dad! I'm outta here!
“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 21, 2013 at 5:51 am
(This post was last modified: March 21, 2013 at 5:52 am by Joel.)
Quote:knows it could do this
'Knows it could' and 'knows it will' are two different things.
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 21, 2013 at 6:09 am
(March 20, 2013 at 10:44 pm)Godschild Wrote: You bought a TV and it made the decision to break, the manufacturer knows it could do this and wasn't caught off guard. It was perfect until it made a decision to short to ground. It worked fine until it made the decision to break, it did have the chose to act that way, we would have preferred it hadn't and so on and so on... You're looking at it from the TV's perspective, for some strange reason. I'm looking at it from the manufacturer's perspective. A responsible manufacturer would have said " hey, sorry about that, these things happen. We'll replace it or refund your money." An irresponsible one would make the excuses you see above.
Godschild Wrote:You can't change the facts of a story to fit your needs, I used exactly what scripture gives us you should try and do the same. We both did, you simply misunderstood where I was going with it. See my reply just above.
Godschild Wrote:As for your little idea about the origins of scripture give me the proof. Proof? That would imply evidence that probably does not exist any longer. The best I can offer is sites like this one, and specifically , which describes the two creation accounts and how their differences point to two different writers reflecting the political and cultural forces at play during their times.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 21, 2013 at 6:16 am
(This post was last modified: March 21, 2013 at 6:18 am by catfish.)
(March 21, 2013 at 6:09 am)Tonus Wrote: You're looking at it from the TV's perspective, for some strange reason. I'm looking at it from the manufacturer's perspective. A responsible manufacturer would have said "hey, sorry about that, these things happen. We'll replace it or refund your money." An irresponsible one would make the excuses you see above.
Ahhh, but everyone who purchased adm 1.0 is entitled to a free upgrade to adm 2.0 (uncorruptible). All you need to do is "accept" the warranty offered by the manufacturer...
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