The 'old testament' argument

[A_Nony_Mouse]

It would help if you had given us specific actions, to give an answer, most Christians do not study the scriptures, so they have no answer except to say those things.
As for the supposed changing God did actually did not happen. Let's take a short look at what happened. God gave Adam and Eve one commandment, they could not manage to keep it, God made it simple for them yet they blew it.

What I find difficult to believe is people who can and do study the bible and not read what is clearly stated but rather invents things which are not there.

There is no commandment on one of the two important trees. What it does say is at most a warning such as don't drink the stuff under the sink. That statement contains its own punishment, immediate death after eating and is also a lie. The serpent tells the truth.

And the reason they are thrown out is very clearly to prevent them from becoming gods by eating the tree of life. It cannot be more explicit but I know people will argue against this so lets just stick with the silly puritanical Augustine invention of what the story means and hear your defense of it. Keep in mind "I do not know the meaning IF any meaning" is always a legitimate answer.

Then comes the 10 Commandments, well the Israelites started disobeying in short order.

Excuse but your god got off to a bad start by sending his priests through the tribes to massacre innocent people for worshiping a golden calf BEFORE there was a commandment against it. No, there is no reference to Noatic law. Yes, the people hear the commandments being spoken from the mountain only in de Mille's movie. That kind of god rules only be fear and terror. There is no problem doing anything you can get away with.

Then comes the law of Moses and again these laws were broken in short order.

Similarly Moses makes up arbitrary and capricious "laws" that mostly appear as exercises in "how silly can it get?" and then has his priests enforce them by terror tactics. Think secret police and summary execution but call them priests and justice.

God kept trying to teach, but man just closed his ears saying la,la,la,la,la and kept right own doing it man's way, if we had listened early on it would not have come down to umpteen laws to keep, just one.

IF that god were trying to teach it would never have let that whacko Moses prohibit mixing kinds of thread and his other insanities. In fact that would god would have publicly defleshed him to restore its reputation among the Israelites/Hebrews/masses oppressed by Moses and his gang of priests.

That god would also have done something recognizable as humane and rational like declaring slavery a sin of course that would have pissed off the Israelites who forceably brought their slaves with them -- no matter how many times it is translated servants. And how is it humans demonstrated superior morality to this god by banning slavery?

When it comes to things like slavery we suddenly discover the god was parochial and provincial and unable to rise above its times. Why do people need to make excuses for this god just because it is their god? What kind of a god regulates instead of prohibits slavery? BTW, it is chattel slavery with a few exceptions which apply only to other "Israelites." Non-jews be damned.

Is there anything else?

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That's too bad eh, because if there was only that one rule to follow we could have gone around slaughtering each other en-masse for the sheer thrill of it without breaking any rules. Damn. It's un-salvageable, you insult yourself in the attempt.

There are several surviving legal systems that pre-date the mythical 1400 BC invention of the big ten. The Code of Hammurabi is the best known. ALL of them prohibit murder. All of them are more advanced and civilized than the big ten.

But starting with the age of exploration as in post 1492 Europeans, aka Christians, began finding new people all of the world and had no problem calling them primitive. Yet all had close enough to the moral code of the big ten but never having heard of them.

Of course Europeans then concentrated on the specific details of the differences just to denigrate other people. For example they made an issue of Aztec human sacrifice while ignoring all the human sacrifice (plus torture something unheardof among the Aztecs) for witchcraft and heresy and having the wrong religion and pissing off the Church.

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Genesis 1:31: God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

But not good enough to work the way it was supposed to, even with god's guidance and cajoling and threatening and promises of reward and punishment. God's definition of "good" is not very, uh... good.

Everything was good until Adam and Eve sinned. Creation worked just as it was designed, it did not work as God desired it to. Adam and Eve had the free will to decide to obey God or not to, they chose not to. God's desire was for them to obey, it was one simple commandment yet they allowed selfishness to enter their lives, thus their wrong decision and sin entered the world. Was not God's fault they chose wrong, they were designed to have choice and chose to sin. They were not designed to sin, it was their choice to sin, they were designed to love God, they allowed selfishness to over ride the love they had for Him and sinned.

Let me get this straight. They did not know the difference between good and evil until after they ate the fruit. If one does not know the difference between good and evil how can there be sin? The story clearly states they could not tell sin from grace. So it is arbitrary and capricious to punish them for a completely innocent act. That innocent act was contrary to the advice (lie) of the god because they did not know there was anything wrong with doing so.

[Minimalist]

This is a stupid analogy.

That is the only kind G-C can make.

[A_Nony_Mouse]

This is a stupid analogy.

That is the only kind G-C can make.

That god makes TVs explains Ed Wood.

[Godscreated]

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It would help if you had given us specific actions, to give an answer, most Christians do not study the scriptures, so they have no answer except to say those things.
As for the supposed changing God did actually did not happen. Let's take a short look at what happened. God gave Adam and Eve one commandment, they could not manage to keep it, God made it simple for them yet they blew it.

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What I find difficult to believe is people who can and do study the bible and not read what is clearly stated but rather invents things which are not there.

I assume you are speaking of me, Ok. What I have trouble understanding, are people who say they have a reasoning mind yet can't see the truth of scriptures. Could it be they do see it but would rather ignore the truth and invent things which are not there.

There is no commandment on one of the two important trees. What it does say is at most a warning such as don't drink the stuff under the sink. That statement contains its own punishment, immediate death after eating and is also a lie. The serpent tells the truth.

Here is a fine example of what was stated above, why would God not want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life? This is the reason why, God said they could eat of all the trees in the Garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Sounds to me God gave a commandment for all the trees, even the Tree of Life, in one encompassing commandment. Sounds reasonable don't you think?
The commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil had to do with spiritual life, eating the fruit would break the spiritual walk Adam and Eve enjoyed with God. They suffered spiritual death immediately, physical death came later, neither of which they had to suffer if they had obeyed the One who gave them life. The serpent's lie did cost them, it cost them an immediate spiritual death and later a physical death as well. Before you go on about that's not right, remember this is a book of spiritual life recorded about those living a physical life.

And the reason they are thrown out is very clearly to prevent them from becoming gods by eating the tree of life. It cannot be more explicit but I know people will argue against this so lets just stick with the silly puritanical Augustine invention of what the story means and hear your defense of it. Keep in mind "I do not know the meaning IF any meaning" is always a legitimate answer.

The reason they were banished from the Garden was punishment for disobedience. It's apparent the Tree of Life was not going to be removed from the Garden, why, only God knows scripture never tells us.
There's a reason God did not want them to live forever in their present condition, they would have had to suffer in sin for eternity and there would be no remission for their sin. Scripture tell us God said, "they would become like Us and live forever". God simply meant they would live for eternity as God does.
If I did not understand what God has taught me I would say so, as with the Tree of Life, I have no idea why God did not just remove it. I'm going to stay with what I know is the truth of scripture, as for you... well I would guess what ever pleases you, no other nonbeliever has listen yet, as far as I know.

Then comes the 10 Commandments, well the Israelites started disobeying in short order.

Excuse but your god got off to a bad start by sending his priests through the tribes to massacre innocent people for worshiping a golden calf BEFORE there was a commandment against it. No, there is no reference to Noatic law. Yes, the people hear the commandments being spoken from the mountain only in de Mille's movie. That kind of god rules only be fear and terror. There is no problem doing anything you can get away with.

You do not see anything wrong with murder, raper, child abuse and ect. as long as no one finds out, you are a scary person. You have no right judging priest with that attitude, what you believe is Ok is far worse than what you believe about those priest and the tribe they are from. By the way you've given us the idea you do not know much of the nation of Israel, the priest come from one tribe only, Levi. Ex. 19:9 And the LORD said to Moses,"Behold, I shall come to you in a thick cloud, in order that the people may hear when I speak to with you, and may also believe in you forever. Scripture says they heard God speak.
The lesson of false worship was made apparent in the 3rd chapter of Genesis, when Adam and Eve worshiped the self by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. At least a couple thousand years of death had already been witnessed because of that act.

Then comes the law of Moses and again these laws were broken in short order.

Similarly Moses makes up arbitrary and capricious "laws" that mostly appear as exercises in "how silly can it get?" and then has his priests enforce them by terror tactics. Think secret police and summary execution but call them priests and justice.

This is another fine example of one who says he reasons, yet makes up his own stories, rather than take scripture for what is said. God gave these laws to Moses, Moses did not make them up, this is plainly stated. I think some of the laws which were given sound strange, I however believe they had a purpose for the Israelite nation, not living in that time and place puts us at a disadvantage when it comes to knowing why some laws were so important. The warnings given came from God also.

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God kept trying to teach, but man just closed his ears saying la,la,la,la,la and kept right own doing it man's way, if we had listened early on it would not have come down to umpteen laws to keep, just one.

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IF that god were trying to teach it would never have let that whacko Moses prohibit mixing kinds of thread and his other insanities. In fact that would god would have publicly defleshed him to restore its reputation among the Israelites/Hebrews/masses oppressed by Moses and his gang of priests.

Please tell us all where you got such ideas, I know it wasn't from the Bible, Moses and the priest did not act the way you believe they did. God never has to defend himself, the consequences of disobedience are through God's judgement on His people.

That god would also have done something recognizable as humane and rational like declaring slavery a sin of course that would have pissed off the Israelites who forceably brought their slaves with them -- no matter how many times it is translated servants. And how is it humans demonstrated superior morality to this god by banning slavery?

When it comes to things like slavery we suddenly discover the god was parochial and provincial and unable to rise above its times. Why do people need to make excuses for this god just because it is their god? What kind of a god regulates instead of prohibits slavery? BTW, it is chattel slavery with a few exceptions which apply only to other "Israelites." Non-jews be damned.

First thing here, I make no excuses for God, I have not right to judge my Creator and to make excuses would be just that, judging.
The type of slavery you have in mind is man made slavery, ie. slavery that existed in the U.S. and that was sinful and the U.S. paid a heavy price for it with the Civil War, that war was God's judgement for slavery.
The slavery that Israel brought upon the peoples of Canaan was through God's judgement on them. The slavery that you do not want people to call servants was to be for no more than 7 years and then they were to be freed and their debt paid. When God puts a people into slavery in the OT it was punishment through just judgement. God is on the moral high round, not man, is you think you are good enough to judge the perfect God... well you are wrong.
As for some of us who read and study scripture we do our best to represent what God teaches us through His word. As for people like you who have no understanding of God or His word I guess you'll keep on making up stories to please yourselves instead of looking for truth.

[Ryantology]

As for some of us who read and study scripture we do our best to represent what God teaches us through His word. As for people like you who have no understanding of God or His word I guess you'll keep on making up stories to please yourselves instead of looking for truth.

Upon what basis do you state that your understanding is correct and ours is not? We're not the ones forced into hilarious (and often conflicting) apologetic gymnastics in these discussions.

Fact is, your God came up with a huge list of forbidden activities. Not only were slavery, torture, and rape not among those activities, but all of those activities are positively encouraged by God, directly. Not even Gentle Jesus speaks out against any of these activities at any time, and proactively condones slavery on his own. You can't judge him because, either you're a pussy, or slavery, torture and rape are acceptable according to your Biblically-inspired moral code.

[Godscreated]

As for some of us who read and study scripture we do our best to represent what God teaches us through His word. As for people like you who have no understanding of God or His word I guess you'll keep on making up stories to please yourselves instead of looking for truth.

Upon what basis do you state that your understanding is correct and ours is not? We're not the ones forced into hilarious (and often conflicting) apologetic gymnastics in these discussions.

Fact is, your God came up with a huge list of forbidden activities. Not only were slavery, torture, and rape not among those activities, but all of those activities are positively encouraged by God, directly. Not even Gentle Jesus speaks out against any of these activities at any time, and proactively condones slavery on his own. You can't judge him because, either you're a pussy, or slavery, torture and rape are acceptable according to your Biblically-inspired moral code.

I guess you do not read what I post, I do not think any of this is morally acceptable, I still want judge the Creator, the omniscient God.

[A_Nony_Mouse]

What I find difficult to believe is people who can and do study the bible and not read what is clearly stated but rather invents things which are not there.

I assume you are speaking of me, Ok. What I have trouble understanding, are people who say they have a reasoning mind yet can't see the truth of scriptures. Could it be they do see it but would rather ignore the truth and invent things which are not there.

As I observed I cannot understand people who cannot read the words and see what they say. That there are people who defer to an invented "truth" sort of leads me to despair of humanity. As I learned in grade school truth is an abstract noun and that abstract nouns have no real existence. I do not understand people who do not recognize an abstract noun when they see one.

There is no commandment on one of the two important trees. What it does say is at most a warning such as don't drink the stuff under the sink. That statement contains its own punishment, immediate death after eating and is also a lie. The serpent tells the truth.

Here is a fine example of what was stated above, why would God not want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life?

That is a good question. We know "in that day you will surely die" was a lie. Why do you think WITH citations from the text and without supernatural inspiration as to what it really means that is.

This is the reason why, God said they could eat of all the trees in the Garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Sounds to me God gave a commandment for all the trees, even the Tree of Life, in one encompassing commandment. Sounds reasonable don't you think?

Eating of the Tree of Life was obviously permitted unless you are saying living forever was our natural heritage. Commandments are what the words say. That you are claiming supernatural knowledge beyond the words is your problem. The bible story does not claim they had supernatural knowledge. Nor is there any hint of this in the text.

Is it not some kind of sin for you to claim such supernatural knowledge? If it is not supernatural then show the natural source of this "knowledge" of yours. Please do not BS me.

The commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil had to do with spiritual life, eating the fruit would break the spiritual walk Adam and Eve enjoyed with God. They suffered spiritual death immediately, physical death came later, neither of which they had to suffer if they had obeyed the One who gave them life. The serpent's lie did cost them, it cost them an immediate spiritual death and later a physical death as well. Before you go on about that's not right, remember this is a book of spiritual life recorded about those living a physical life.

You are making this up as you go along. Produce the physical evidence to support the bullshit you are posting. If it were not such a clear violation of the rules of posting I would be calling you a lying retard and worse but I do not. I simply ask you to post the physical evidence of that interpretation of the story.

And the reason they are thrown out is very clearly to prevent them from becoming gods by eating the tree of life. It cannot be more explicit but I know people will argue against this so lets just stick with the silly puritanical Augustine invention of what the story means and hear your defense of it. Keep in mind "I do not know the meaning IF any meaning" is always a legitimate answer.

The reason they were banished from the Garden was punishment for disobedience.

That is not what it says. In this case you are clearly lying about what it says and calling you a liar is not a personal attack because the words themselves declare you a liar.

It's apparent the Tree of Life was not going to be removed from the Garden, why, only God knows scripture never tells us.
There's a reason God did not want them to live forever in their present condition, they would have had to suffer in sin for eternity and there would be no remission for their sin. Scripture tell us God said, "they would become like Us and live forever". God simply meant they would live for eternity as God does.

If I did not understand what God has taught me I would say so, as with the Tree of Life, I have no idea why God did not just remove it. I'm going to stay with what I know is the truth of scripture, as for you... well I would guess what ever pleases you, no other nonbeliever has listen yet, as far as I know.

IF you wish to personally defend Augustine then you are required to cite your physical evidence. You are doing nothing but sinfully claiming supernatural knowledge. I can recommend bringing back the stake for folks like you. You are blaspheming to claim such knowledge when you cannot possibly have it unless you are claiming to be a prophet of the Lord. And if not, stop posting crap.

If you want to continue this way, NAME the prophet of the Lord who added so much to the words and who DENIED the cause of expulsion. Who is the prophet who would change the word of the Lord?

Then comes the 10 Commandments, well the Israelites started disobeying in short order.

Excuse but your god got off to a bad start by sending his priests through the tribes to massacre innocent people for worshiping a golden calf BEFORE there was a commandment against it. No, there is no reference to Noatic law. Yes, the people hear the commandments being spoken from the mountain only in de Mille's movie. That kind of god rules only be fear and terror. There is no problem doing anything you can get away with.

You do not see anything wrong with murder, raper, child abuse and ect. as long as no one finds out, you are a scary person. You have no right judging priest with that attitude, what you believe is Ok is far worse than what you believe about those priest and the tribe they are from.

I see a shitload wrong with mass murder and rule by terror which is exactly what Exodus records as the form and manner of the rule of Moses and therefore of his god. I have an absolute right to judge people who murder others for violating a commandment they do not know exists. But you are defending that.

If again you are claiming supernatural knowledge of the meaning of the words then again I propose bringing back the stake.

By the way you've given us the idea you do not know much of the nation of Israel, the priest come from one tribe only, Levi. Ex. 19:9 And the LORD said to Moses,"Behold, I shall come to you in a thick cloud, in order that the people may hear when I speak to with you, and may also believe in you forever. Scripture says they heard God speak.

Why would I give a rat's ass about the mythical nation of Israel or the mythical Moses, Abraham, David, Solomon, Babylon or anything else? I used to pity who believed such BS. Now I simply wish they were close enough to spit on.

The lesson of false worship was made apparent in the 3rd chapter of Genesis, when Adam and Eve worshiped the self by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. At least a couple thousand years of death had already been witnessed because of that act.

Another claim to supernatural knowledge. Bring back the STAKE!

Then comes the law of Moses and again these laws were broken in short order.

There is no record of the people giving Moses the right to create laws. There is only is priestly goon squad who murder people for violating the idiotic laws of Moses. Screw the murderous asshole.

Similarly Moses makes up arbitrary and capricious "laws" that mostly appear as exercises in "how silly can it get?" and then has his priests enforce them by terror tactics. Think secret police and summary execution but call them priests and justice.

This is another fine example of one who says he reasons, yet makes up his own stories, rather than take scripture for what is said. God gave these laws to Moses, Moses did not make them up, this is plainly stated. I think some of the laws which were given sound strange, I however believe they had a purpose for the Israelite nation, not living in that time and place puts us at a disadvantage when it comes to knowing why some laws were so important. The warnings given came from God also.

Gee whiz, mister prophet. Perhaps I was confused by your LIE that they were the laws of Moses. Now you are changing your story and claiming your god was such as imbecile as to have a problem with mixing thread. I was giving you Moses as a demented asshole but you want to declare your god is a demented asshole. Your demented asshole god thinks there is a problem with pork and that rabbits chew cud. One error busts the facade as it did with the Wizard of Oz.

Try being as smart as Dorothy.

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God kept trying to teach, but man just closed his ears saying la,la,la,la,la and kept right own doing it man's way, if we had listened early on it would not have come down to umpteen laws to keep, just one.

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IF that god were trying to teach it would never have let that whacko Moses prohibit mixing kinds of thread and his other insanities. In fact that would god would have publicly defleshed him to restore its reputation among the Israelites/Hebrews/masses oppressed by Moses and his gang of priests.

Please tell us all where you got such ideas, I know it wasn't from the Bible, Moses and the priest did not act the way you believe they did.

Bullshit! You know exactly what happened after Moses came down from the mountain and punished the calf worshipers. Can you not read? Or do you not believe what is written? Or do you have supernatural knowledge of something else "really" happening?

Get your act together and make your case?

God never has to defend himself, the consequences of disobedience are through God's judgement on His people.

The consequences of disobedience, as anyone who has ever read the bible was death, usually by stoning but there were other options. There was no provision for a trial nor witnesses there was only summary execution by priests. Of course if you can show me any fair trial you are free to make a case contrary to what is not in question as the rule of terror by the priests.

That god would also have done something recognizable as humane and rational like declaring slavery a sin of course that would have pissed off the Israelites who forceably brought their slaves with them -- no matter how many times it is translated servants. And how is it humans demonstrated superior morality to this god by banning slavery?

When it comes to things like slavery we suddenly discover the god was parochial and provincial and unable to rise above its times. Why do people need to make excuses for this god just because it is their god? What kind of a god regulates instead of prohibits slavery? BTW, it is chattel slavery with a few exceptions which apply only to other "Israelites." Non-jews be damned.

First thing here, I make no excuses for God, I have not right to judge my Creator and to make excuses would be just that, judging.

Correctly describing in not judging. I have no right to judge Al Qaeda as they have not submitted to my judgement. There is not difference in RIGHT to judge.

That does not change the correct description that your god rules by terror not by love. Your god does what it does. That (you believe) we are stuck with that god does not mean we have to give a shit about it. It is something in the same category as Al Qaeda and every other terrorist organization. The KGB, the SS, no difference. And its rules are just as arbitrary and capricious.

Again you do not respond but claim supernatural knowledge. I want the stake NOW!

The type of slavery you have in mind is man made slavery, ie. slavery that existed in the U.S. and that was sinful and the U.S. paid a heavy price for it with the Civil War, that war was God's judgement for slavery.

I have two choices here. I can simply observe you are an ignorant asshole and idiot or to explain why you are an ignorant asshole and idiot. As I need sleep I will hold off the explanation for later.

The slavery that Israel brought upon the peoples of Canaan was through God's judgement on them.[/quote]

You lie so fluidly when I referred only to the slaves of the Hebrews who were forced to leave Egypt with Moses.

That your god would approve of any form of slavery means it needs to be represented with KKK costume.

The slavery that you do not want people to call servants was to be for no more than 7 years and then they were to be freed and their debt paid. When God puts a people into slavery in the OT it was punishment through just judgement. God is on the moral high round, not man, is you think you are good enough to judge the perfect God... well you are wrong.
As for some of us who read and study scripture we do our best to represent what God teaches us through His word. As for people like you who have no understanding of God or His word I guess you'll keep on making up stories to please yourselves instead of looking for truth.

Your fucking god is a Klansman, period. Maybe it is the grand Kleegle but it is a piece of shit supporter of slavery. Get over it.

BTW, your god lost the power to strike dead. I have had three heart attacks since November and here I am still hassling you idiots who KNOW your god preserved me to do what I am doing.

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...
You do not see anything wrong with murder, raper, child abuse and ect. as long as no one finds out,
...

Actually a do see a problem when some god declares the Israelites can keep all the virgin girls for themselves. I consider that both rape and child abuse which is commanded by your god. Do you want Chapter and Verse? I am certain I can find it just to demonstrate you are lying about your god.

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Upon what basis do you state that your understanding is correct and ours is not? We're not the ones forced into hilarious (and often conflicting) apologetic gymnastics in these discussions.

Fact is, your God came up with a huge list of forbidden activities. Not only were slavery, torture, and rape not among those activities, but all of those activities are positively encouraged by God, directly. Not even Gentle Jesus speaks out against any of these activities at any time, and proactively condones slavery on his own. You can't judge him because, either you're a pussy, or slavery, torture and rape are acceptable according to your Biblically-inspired moral code.

I guess you do not read what I post, I do not think any of this is morally acceptable, I still want judge the Creator, the omniscient God.

Frankly since the Big Bang and all that followed no rational person has given a rat's ass about any "god creator" crap. Omniscient in fine but no one has ever produced evidence for the god much less omniscience. Perhaps you will be the first to do so without falling back upon your supernatural knowledge claims.

Get an education. And if you are tempted by Satan to ask who created the Big Bang I don't know is a valid answer. Assuming a [b]WHO]/b] is claiming supernatural knowledge. Are you a blasphemer or do you claim such knowledge?

[Godscreated]

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I assume you are speaking of me, Ok. What I have trouble understanding, are people who say they have a reasoning mind yet can't see the truth of scriptures. Could it be they do see it but would rather ignore the truth and invent things which are not there.

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As I observed I cannot understand people who cannot read the words and see what they say. That there are people who defer to an invented "truth" sort of leads me to despair of humanity. As I learned in grade school truth is an abstract noun and that abstract nouns have no real existence. I do not understand people who do not recognize an abstract noun when they see one.

Someone has taught you a lie, truth is an objective moral period. It's standard comes from God who is truth, God does not practice truth, He is Truth.

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Here is a fine example of what was stated above, why would God not want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life?

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That is a good question. We know "in that day you will surely die" was a lie. Why do you think WITH citations from the text and without supernatural inspiration as to what it really means that is.

As I've stated before the Bible is a spiritual book, written for the physical man. Do you have trouble seeing this? The statement "in that day you will surely die," is about the spiritual life Adam and Eve was enjoying with God. God met all their physical needs when He placed them in the Garden, He met their spiritual needs when He walked in the Garden with them in the cool of the evening. When they disobeyed sin came into the world, separating themselves from God, God could no longer walk with them, so spiritual death came to man, sin also brought physical death into the world and all God's creatures suffered death.

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This is the reason why, God said they could eat of all the trees in the Garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Sounds to me God gave a commandment for all the trees, even the Tree of Life, in one encompassing commandment. Sounds reasonable don't you think?

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Eating of the Tree of Life was obviously permitted unless you are saying living forever was our natural heritage. Commandments are what the words say. That you are claiming supernatural knowledge beyond the words is your problem. The bible story does not claim they had supernatural knowledge. Nor is there any hint of this in the text.

Is it not some kind of sin for you to claim such supernatural knowledge? If it is not supernatural then show the natural source of this "knowledge" of yours. Please do not BS me.

Yes living forever was our natural heritage, read scripture and you would find it saying sin brought death into creation. God may not help you understand scriptures, as for me I ask for His discernment and receive it. So, you see I'm give knowledge from the supernatural God of creation.

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The commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil had to do with spiritual life, eating the fruit would break the spiritual walk Adam and Eve enjoyed with God. They suffered spiritual death immediately, physical death came later, neither of which they had to suffer if they had obeyed the One who gave them life. The serpent's lie did cost them, it cost them an immediate spiritual death and later a physical death as well. Before you go on about that's not right, remember this is a book of spiritual life recorded about those living a physical life.

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You are making this up as you go along. Produce the physical evidence to support the bullshit you are posting. If it were not such a clear violation of the rules of posting I would be calling you a lying retard and worse but I do not. I simply ask you to post the physical evidence of that interpretation of the story.

I'm not making up anything, your problem is discernment of scriptures. So, let me get this straight, you want me to give you physical evidence of the spiritual, now that's funny. You can call me anything you want, it want bother me, Min's already dished out everything and I'm still going. Jesus said people like you would come after Christians with verbal abuse, He said to not let it bother us because in actuality you would be castin the abuse at Him, and this you can believe I trust Him over anything you have to say.

The reason they were banished from the Garden was punishment for disobedience.

That is not what it says. In this case you are clearly lying about what it says and calling you a liar is not a personal attack because the words themselves declare you a liar.

Have you ever read the Bible, the more you write the more I'm believing you're spouting only what someone has told you. Since you think I'm lying, please tell me what you see as the truth of Adam and Eve being put out of the Garden of Eden.

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It's apparent the Tree of Life was not going to be removed from the Garden, why, only God knows scripture never tells us.
There's a reason God did not want them to live forever in their present condition, they would have had to suffer in sin for eternity and there would be no remission for their sin. Scripture tell us God said, "they would become like Us and live forever". God simply meant they would live for eternity as God does.

If I did not understand what God has taught me I would say so, as with the Tree of Life, I have no idea why God did not just remove it. I'm going to stay with what I know is the truth of scripture, as for you... well I would guess what ever pleases you, no other nonbeliever has listen yet, as far as I know.

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IF you wish to personally defend Augustine then you are required to cite your physical evidence. You are doing nothing but sinfully claiming supernatural knowledge. I can recommend bringing back the stake for folks like you. You are blaspheming to claim such knowledge when you cannot possibly have it unless you are claiming to be a prophet of the Lord. And if not, stop posting crap.

If you want to continue this way, NAME the prophet of the Lord who added so much to the words and who DENIED the cause of expulsion. Who is the prophet who would change the word of the Lord?

I do not defend Augustine, why would I, you make no sense at all, Augustine did not write scripture.
How can the knowledge that God gives be a sinful act, please do enlighten me. I have the knowledge of God because I ask for it, I ask for it so I can know Him better and serve Him better, there's nothing blasphemous about it. I do not need to be a prophet to be given God's truth, all any Christian need do is ask and in time God will reveal what is good for our relationship with Him. As for the last part of your statement you make no sense at all.

You do not see anything wrong with murder, raper, child abuse and ect. as long as no one finds out, you are a scary person. You have no right judging priest with that attitude, what you believe is Ok is far worse than what you believe about those priest and the tribe they are from.

I see a shitload wrong with mass murder and rule by terror which is exactly what Exodus records as the form and manner of the rule of Moses and therefore of his god. I have an absolute right to judge people who murder others for violating a commandment they do not know exists. But you are defending that.

If again you are claiming supernatural knowledge of the meaning of the words then again I propose bringing back the stake.

You have avoided my question, why? You do not even know what the book of Exodus teaches, if not, why are you trying to tell me what is in the book. I am defending what the book of Exodus teaches, while you produce nothing but lies about it. As for your stake bring it own, I'm willing to die for Christ.

Why would I give a rat's ass about the mythical nation of Israel or the mythical Moses, Abraham, David, Solomon, Babylon or anything else? I used to pity who believed such BS. Now I simply wish they were close enough to spit on.

Mythical Israel, are you serious, the name of King David has been found in one dig and Babylon is written in history. Man what's the matter with you. Spit on your screen if it will make you feel better.

There is no record of the people giving Moses the right to create laws. There is only is priestly goon squad who murder people for violating the idiotic laws of Moses. Screw the murderous asshole.

You're right there is no record of the people giving Moses the right to make laws, however they did agree to keep the laws God gave Moses. They seemed to have no problem accepting those laws, and those laws were the only one's Moses recorded. You sure do get upset about a man whom you believe never lived, you should calm down. By the way please show me the verses where the priest murdered. You have made the clam of murder, now it's time to show your proof.

Gee whiz, mister prophet. Perhaps I was confused by your LIE that they were the laws of Moses. Now you are changing your story and claiming your god was such as imbecile as to have a problem with mixing thread. I was giving you Moses as a demented asshole but you want to declare your god is a demented asshole. Your demented asshole god thinks there is a problem with pork and that rabbits chew cud. One error busts the facade as it did with the Wizard of Oz.

I think you may be losing it fellow, the Law of Moses is known as the laws given to Moses by God, even your fellow nonbelievers know this. I haven't changed my story or anything else, but as for you, you are all over the place, I do believe you do not know up from down.

Bullshit! You know exactly what happened after Moses came down from the mountain and punished the calf worshipers. Can you not read? Or do you not believe what is written? Or do you have supernatural knowledge of something else "really" happening?
Get your act together and make your case?

God punished those who chose wrongly, Moses was just the instrument God used. Everyone but you seem to know this, what's the problem you're having that you can't understand this.

The consequences of disobedience, as anyone who has ever read the bible was death, usually by stoning but there were other options. There was no provision for a trial nor witnesses there was only summary execution by priests. Of course if you can show me any fair trial you are free to make a case contrary to what is not in question as the rule of terror by the priests.

Since you have not read the Bible, and it's apparent you have not, how would you know.
Num. 35:30 If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death at the evidence of the witnesses, but no person will be put to deathon the testimony of one witness.
Ex. 23:1 You shall not bear a false report; do not join your hand with a wicked man to be a malicious witness.
Deut. 17:6 "On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness.
Deut. 19:15 "A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.
Deut. 19:16-19 "If a malicious witness rises up against a man to accuse him of wrong doing, then both the men who have the dispute shall stand before the LORD, before the priest and the judges who will be in office in those days. "And the judges shall investigate thoroughly; and if the witness is a false witness and he has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him just as he intended to do to his brother. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.
Need more to satisfy your condemning mind, this sounds much like the courts of today.

That does not change the correct description that your god rules by terror not by love. Your god does what it does. That (you believe) we are stuck with that god does not mean we have to give a shit about it.

God rules by justice, I've pointed this out above with passages from scripture, something you fail to do, you make unfounded accusations about God and His word. If God ruled by terror my friend you would not be here to argue this point, just a poof and a puff of smoke and bye, bye.

I have two choices here. I can simply observe you are an ignorant asshole and idiot or to explain why you are an ignorant asshole and idiot. As I need sleep I will hold off the explanation for later.

You should have stayed at it before I got to your comments and showed others how little you know about scriptures, you'er a loud irritating noise out of the darkness.

The slavery that Israel brought upon the peoples of Canaan was through God's judgement on them.

You lie so fluidly when I referred only to the slaves of the Hebrews who were forced to leave Egypt with Moses.

This would have been done by the decree of God, punishment through God's judgement on Israels tormentors.

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The slavery that you do not want people to call servants was to be for no more than 7 years and then they were to be freed and their debt paid. When God puts a people into slavery in the OT it was punishment through just judgement. God is on the moral high round, not man, do you think you are good enough to judge the perfect God... well you are wrong.
As for some of us who read and study scripture we do our best to represent what God teaches us through His word. As for people like you who have no understanding of God or His word I guess you'll keep on making up stories to please yourselves instead of looking for truth.

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Your fucking god is a Klansman, period. Maybe it is the grand Kleegle but it is a piece of shit supporter of slavery. Get over it.

BTW, your god lost the power to strike dead. I have had three heart attacks since November and here I am still hassling you idiots who KNOW your god preserved me to do what I am doing.

God has given you through His grace another chance. God could have let you die, however He did not, He save you mortal life for a reason and if I were you I believe I would be finding out, because God says He will not strive with man indefinitely.

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...
You do not see anything wrong with murder, raper, child abuse and ect. as long as no one finds out,
...

Actually a do see a problem when some god declares the Israelites can keep all the virgin girls for themselves. I consider that both rape and child abuse which is commanded by your god. Do you want Chapter and Verse? I am certain I can find it just to demonstrate you are lying about your god.

Yes please give me all the verses where God commands rape and child abuse.

[Neo-Scholastic]

[quote='A_Nony_Mouse' pid='420683' dateline='1364198479']...truth is an abstract noun and that abstract nouns have no real existence. I do not understand people who do not recognize an abstract noun when they see one. [quote]The real question is this. Do abstract nouns have or convey meaning?

[A_Nony_Mouse]

[quote='A_Nony_Mouse' pid='420683' dateline='1364198479']...truth is an abstract noun and that abstract nouns have no real existence. I do not understand people who do not recognize an abstract noun when they see one.

The real question is this. Do abstract nouns have or convey meaning?

Of course a word conveys meaning but they do not necessarily refer to a thing which really exists. That a word has a meaning does not mean it describes a thing which exists. It is often quite simple. There is blue light. That is photons which when striking our retinas we call blue. It is not as though there is blue independent of photons and our retinas.

So we may use blue as a noun, talk about blueness, but in reality it can never be more than an adjective and describe reality.

Similarly we can have a true recounting of reality as best as a person knows it but we cannot have truth independent of that reality. Neither a pound of blue nor a pound of truth can exist independent of things regardless of how we use the words. That we can talk about four sided triangles does not mean they can exist.

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[quote='Godschild' pid='421291' dateline='1364275726']
...
Someone has taught you a lie, truth is an objective moral period. It's standard comes from God who is truth, God does not practice truth, He is Truth.
...

In regard to the fruit, "in that day you will surely die" means your god practices lying as they did not die in that day. That you will claim your god had crossed its fingers behind its back and claim it really meant death some nine centuries later can only mean your god is still a childish, juvenile who has not yet learned the meaning of telling the truth.

As for your god being truth, you are going to have to give the definition of the word truth you are using as you are not using the meanings given in the dictionary. Using secret definitions of words is not permitted in public discussions as it makes them impossible.