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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 12, 2013 at 10:10 pm
(This post was last modified: March 12, 2013 at 10:12 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I'm with Faith on this one, the NT is worse than the OT. The OT talks about a god who does shitty things, but the NT goes a step further pleading with me to become accomplice to these shitty things, and ultimately, accept at least one thing (ironically referred to as a gift nowadays) that would firmly establish my status as a creature as lowly and in need of redemption as it attempts to paint me as from the outset.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 12, 2013 at 10:13 pm
(This post was last modified: March 12, 2013 at 10:15 pm by Angrboda.)
As a theist, I take it I'm supposed to answer this question.
I personally appreciate the comedic value of, to use Min's phrase, watching them trip over their balls trying to reconcile the irreconcilable bits. It's quite humorous.
More than that, I'd say that like other vague clauses in contracts, it has the potential for creating a great deal of worldly mischief and harm.
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 12, 2013 at 10:24 pm
(March 12, 2013 at 11:47 am)iameatingjam Wrote: This is a question for theists. I often come to a point in discussion with religious people where I start pointing out horrendous bible versus. They usually say something along the line of 'oh but that was in the old testament so it doesn't matter'. What?? Its the word of GOD but it is irrelevant? So god came back and changed his mind?? He created the universe but as soon as social norms change so do his? What is the rationale behind this? Thanks.
Jeremiah 8:8
Ezekiel 22:28
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 12, 2013 at 10:33 pm
(This post was last modified: March 12, 2013 at 10:56 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
This topic came up in a conversation between Drich and I. The OT laws are tangled up with atonement and it is hard to discuss one without discussing the other. Hopefully, I've learned how to insert links properly...
http://atheistforums.org/thread-17275.html
The executive summary is something like this. By the time of first Advent, the internal sense of OT laws had been lost and worship had fallen into unspiritual legalism, i.e. practice of the Mosaic rules had become empty gestures. Jesus restores to the church the spiritual principles of loving the Lord and our neighbors as ourselves, that informed the rules of the ancient Hebrew theocracy. Legalistic compliance with Mosaic law can be dismissed, but only to the extent that the spiritual laws represented by the OT rituals and prohibitions are obeyed.
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 19, 2013 at 1:26 am
(March 12, 2013 at 11:47 am)iameatingjam Wrote: This is a question for theists. I often come to a point in discussion with religious people where I start pointing out horrendous bible versus. They usually say something along the line of 'oh but that was in the old testament so it doesn't matter'. What?? Its the word of GOD but it is irrelevant? So god came back and changed his mind?? He created the universe but as soon as social norms change so do his? What is the rationale behind this? Thanks.
It would help if you had given us specific actions, to give an answer, most Christians do not study the scriptures, so they have no answer except to say those things.
As for the supposed changing God did actually did not happen. Let's take a short look at what happened. God gave Adam and Eve one commandment, they could not manage to keep it, God made it simple for them yet they blew it.
Then comes the 10 Commandments, well the Israelites started disobeying in short order.
Then comes the law of Moses and again these laws were broken in short order.
God kept trying to teach, but man just closed his ears saying la,la,la,la,la and kept right own doing it man's way, if we had listened early on it would not have come down to umpteen laws to keep, just one.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 19, 2013 at 2:06 pm
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2013 at 2:07 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
That's too bad eh, because if there was only that one rule to follow we could have gone around slaughtering each other en-masse for the sheer thrill of it without breaking any rules. Damn. It's un-salvageable, you insult yourself in the attempt.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 19, 2013 at 2:13 pm
(March 19, 2013 at 1:26 am)Godschild Wrote: if we had listened early on it would not have come down to umpteen laws to keep, just one.
![[Image: the-dont-be-a-dick-bible-5779-1299758454-5.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=s3-ec.buzzfed.com%2Fstatic%2Fimagebuzz%2Fweb04%2F2011%2F3%2F10%2F7%2Fthe-dont-be-a-dick-bible-5779-1299758454-5.jpg)
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 19, 2013 at 2:57 pm
(March 19, 2013 at 1:26 am)Godschild Wrote: As for the supposed changing God did actually did not happen. Let's take a short look at what happened. God gave Adam and Eve one commandment, they could not manage to keep it, God made it simple for them yet they blew it.
Then comes the 10 Commandments, well the Israelites started disobeying in short order.
Then comes the law of Moses and again these laws were broken in short order.
God kept trying to teach, but man just closed his ears saying la,la,la,la,la and kept right own doing it man's way, if we had listened early on it would not have come down to umpteen laws to keep, just one.
Genesis 1:31: God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.
But not good enough to work the way it was supposed to, even with god's guidance and cajoling and threatening and promises of reward and punishment. God's definition of "good" is not very, uh... good.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 19, 2013 at 3:22 pm
Quote:. "God does not inflict correction on the world as if he were some unskilled laborer who is incapable of building something properly the first time around; God has no need to purify what he has built by means of a flood or a conflagration (as they teach)."
Celsus, late 2d century Greco-Roman philosopher demolishing xtian stupidity in "On the True Doctrine."
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RE: The 'old testament' argument
March 19, 2013 at 5:09 pm
(March 19, 2013 at 2:57 pm)Tonus Wrote: (March 19, 2013 at 1:26 am)Godschild Wrote: As for the supposed changing God did actually did not happen. Let's take a short look at what happened. God gave Adam and Eve one commandment, they could not manage to keep it, God made it simple for them yet they blew it.
Then comes the 10 Commandments, well the Israelites started disobeying in short order.
Then comes the law of Moses and again these laws were broken in short order.
God kept trying to teach, but man just closed his ears saying la,la,la,la,la and kept right own doing it man's way, if we had listened early on it would not have come down to umpteen laws to keep, just one.
Genesis 1:31: God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.
But not good enough to work the way it was supposed to, even with god's guidance and cajoling and threatening and promises of reward and punishment. God's definition of "good" is not very, uh... good.
Everything was good until Adam and Eve sinned. Creation worked just as it was designed, it did not work as God desired it to. Adam and Eve had the free will to decide to obey God or not to, they chose not to. God's desire was for them to obey, it was one simple commandment yet they allowed selfishness to enter their lives, thus their wrong decision and sin entered the world. Was not God's fault they chose wrong, they were designed to have choice and chose to sin. They were not designed to sin, it was their choice to sin, they were designed to love God, they allowed selfishness to over ride the love they had for Him and sinned.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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