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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 10:27 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 10:27 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(April 4, 2013 at 10:17 am)MysticKnight Wrote: And would add, the fact we do condemn them, shows we believe we do choose what we believe and that there are things that we ought to believe(ie. there are thought crimes). It doesn't show any such thing, it simply shows that we assign culpability to the agents of any action.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 10:28 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 10:29 am by Mystic.)
(April 4, 2013 at 10:27 am)Rhythm Wrote: (April 4, 2013 at 10:17 am)MysticKnight Wrote: And would add, the fact we do condemn them, shows we believe we do choose what we believe and that there are things that we ought to believe(ie. there are thought crimes). It doesn't show any such thing, it simply shows that we assign culpability to the agents of any action.
But you would not blame them or condemn them if you believe they had no choice in their belief it was right.
Of course it doesn't show we are right in that belief, but simply that we do have that.
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 10:30 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 10:32 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Why wouldn't I? Further, what would a belief that they had a choice in their actions show about the nature of belief and choice? Perhaps they did not choose their beliefs (that informed their actions) and I did not choose to believe that they had culpability for them (which informs my blame).
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 10:34 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 10:36 am by Mystic.)
(April 4, 2013 at 10:30 am)Rhythm Wrote: Why wouldn't I?
To condemn some person, requires you believe they are blameworthy.
They can only be blameworthy, if they could avoid what is blameworthy.
They can only avoid what is blameworthy, if they had some choice in the matter (ie. some free-will in deciding the matter).
(April 4, 2013 at 10:30 am)Rhythm Wrote: Perhaps they did not choose their beliefs (that informed their actions) and I did not choose to believe that they had culpability for them (which informs my blame).
Perhaps not, but if you believed they had no choice, you could not condemn them.
Well, not really, you can believe in a contradicting thing, you would believe they have a choice, at the same time don't....
But to condemn them, you do it from the belief they do have the choice.
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 10:36 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 10:37 am by The Grand Nudger.)
To condemn some person, requires you believe they are blameworthy. - but it doesn't require that you had any choice in that belief.
I could do the same for every line, but I don't have to, do I?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 10:38 am
(April 4, 2013 at 10:36 am)Rhythm Wrote: To condemn some person, requires you believe they are blameworthy. - but it doesn't require that you had any choice in that belief.
I could do the same for every line, but I don't have to, do I? True but irrelevant.
Do you contest the following premise:
They can only avoid what is blameworthy, if they had some choice in the matter (ie. some free-will in deciding the matter).
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 10:45 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 10:49 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Irrelevant...Mystic....the point of contention is that "choice" may not really be all that active in our beliefs. Pointing to any belief held by anyone won't erase that point of contention - unless you can establish that it was chosen.
Whether or not I would contest the premise has what to do with whether or not I chose to believe that they themselves had some choice in the matter?
(and for the record - I don't actually put my marbles behind the whole "choice" or "free-will" thing anywhere......plenty of threads with me arguing against it - you see, as I sit here and comprehend the massive chain of causality, and our place in that chain as biological computers.I find it entirely impossible to choose to believe in choice - as it is so often offered to us. When I ask others to demonstrate that they have a choice in what they believe - I'm actually trying to find a reason to believe it myself....that I cannot seem to believe in things - that I require reasons and evidence - is again, not something I seem to have had any choice in)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 10:47 am
But I already stated:
(April 4, 2013 at 10:28 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Of course it doesn't show we are right in that belief, but simply that we do have that.
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 10:50 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 10:50 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Yes, you already stated that, but it's just re-assertion - it doesn't demonstrate anything. Whether we have a belief or not does not demonstrate that we chose it. What is so difficult about this?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is belief really a choice?
April 4, 2013 at 10:55 am
(This post was last modified: April 4, 2013 at 10:56 am by Mystic.)
(April 4, 2013 at 10:50 am)Rhythm Wrote: Yes, you already stated that, but it's just re-assertion - it doesn't demonstrate anything.
Original point of contention:
And would add, the fact we do condemn them, shows we believe we do choose what we believe and that there are things that we ought to believe(ie. there are thought crimes).
So we believe two things when we condemn people:
1) We chose what to believe.
2) That there are things we ought to believe.
Without those 2, we can't condemn 9/11 Hijackers.
Of course, I said, this doesn't demonstrate we are right in our assumptions.
I think I've defended the original point of contention well and we are moving away from that now.
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