Question for the Former Theists

[Whateverist]

So long ago I'm likely to confabulate.

Went to church but at too young an age to remember anything about it. My father was hyper religious but away in the navy much of the time. My mother liked religion well enough but mostly was afraid of hell.

I learned just enough of Christianity to create my own bastardized version, though it holds together better and is much more attractive than any other version I've heard of. In that version I believed fervently through early elementary school. My uncle was an atheist and as much as I liked him I thought he and any other atheists were the world's biggest ingrates.

In my version of Christianity God could do no wrong. Having never heard of the stories of the old testament there was no conflict in thinking that. I pictured God as this very old, wise and compassionate being who was also kind of lonely. My hope was to live a life that would make me a worthy companion to this old being. When even my version stopped making sense, I was sad to say goodbye to this being.

But say goodbye I did at around 10 or 11 years old. It just started not to fit with my experience. I flew under the radar until I left home. No reason to rile up the 'rents. Never could discuss it with my father but then again he had zero language and people skills.

I have no problem with anyone who continues to believe in the god they've conjured up, whether alone or by way of a group. I understand the attraction. Just don't go pushing to legislate for a country that would please your god and I won't have anything rude to say.

[frz]

Because I'm a nice guy and the bible says nothing about nice guys so, I said fuck it.

To elaborate, when I was 16, for some personal reason at the time, I decided I wanted to know more about god and my religion, the seven day adventist. I read the bible and instead of getting enlightened I was disappointed and confused. I realized why the pastors always interpreted the book to everybody, they skipped a lot of shit. And that the struggles that happened in the bible was another survival of the fittest game with one side claiming god given rights to rule and the other to be slaved or dead. I thought, what a fuckery and that was the end of that.

[Something completely different]

A lot of times in the convert corner or the introduction thread, I see a phrase like "I started to question" or "Things weren't making sense", etc. If you don't mind, I'd love to hear if you know or remember specific things which caused god-belief not to jive anymore.

mhmm

Having parents with two different religious beliefs.

Churches in Europe (big medieval buldings - therefor very cold spiced with the disgusting smell of mold)

Having a catholic priest as teacher in school who would beat up the kids if they didnt read the bible and stuff

Getting beaten up by other kids for not wanting to be an alter boy

Getting beaten by people for not attending church

My Grandpas long and painfull death due to a inoperable braintumor

Finding out that my religious grandpa and various others amongst my loving family members were nazis

9/11

Bush

the Irak war

reading the quoran

[Mystical]

Wow German, I mean wow. Your history is tragic to say the least.

I lost my faith in there being a god the moment I almost died.
But, there's one thing that rode on my mind the entire time I was a theist, which has been 95% of my life.

Suicide.

I couldn't rectify the thought that my dear family members were in hell eternally for A. Being psychologically unstable and B. not wanting to be a burden to others. and C. not wanting to end life with the terrible diagnosis of cancer.
For the longest time I deluded myself into believing that one day I could go save them from hell, but in the end I concluded that the god I believed in wouldn't actually send them to hell. But I had no reason to believe that. The bible says the opposite.

This line of thinking lead me to the conclusion that either what god says is not so, or what he says is so and thus is so unjust I can't fathom a being of that magnitude of hypocrisy. The more life showed itself, the crueler it got, the more I realized that if he loved us like he did, we wouldn't be here as we are.

Which then lead to questioning why he set things up as he did, and I realized that it is indeed his fault that satan exists, that we exist and "fell", and then I read the bible without blinders on. Without concessions included for him in doing what he did. And I realized that those who were following god didn't know the god they were following, or they wouldn't follow him.

[Rayaan]

Even if this doesn't make you doubt any longer, it should at least get you to question the whether a god that would create a system that would punish people for eternity for finite thought crimes deserves to be worshiped.

It might be more than just a simple thought crime. I think it is much deeper and stronger than that because in Islam, belief/non-belief is primarily tied to the conditions of one's heart and to it's unique intuition called "fitrah". There are also verses in the Quran itself which state that the non-believers have "wronged their own souls," but they do not perceive it at the moment.

As for the "eternity" part, I don't know what my experience of time itself would feel like in a whole different reality. Our sense of time and even our consciousness might be such a one that we have never experienced nor been able to imagine before, so I cannot really determine the exact nature nor the moral applications of living in an "eternal" habitat.

Because you're beliefs are not supported by demonstrable evidence, reasoned argument and valid logic. They are based on emotion and wishful thinking.

But even evidence is subjective sometimes because people have different standards in regards to what is sufficient as an evidence for something. And coming to the issue of a valid logic, understand that logic itself has limitations as demonstrated by one of the greatest logicians named Kurt Godel who, through his Incompleteness Theorem, proved that even in mathematical systems, there are certain axiomatic statements which are true but they cannot be proved to be true. In other words, they just have to be accepted to be true without proof. Hence logic is "incomplete," and so Godel's theorem fundamentally destroyed the belief that logic is absolute.

"Gödel showed that provability is a weaker notion than truth, no matter what axiom system is involved "

http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html

[Mystic]

It might be more than just a simple thought crime. I think it is much deeper and stronger than that because in Islam, belief/non-belief is primarily tied to the conditions of one's heart and to it's unique intuition called "fitrah". There are also verses in the Quran itself which state that the non-believers have "wronged their own souls," but they do not perceive it at the moment.

Yes, in that sense, Atheists/Deists all agree that when you go against the unique intuition of the heart, it is to be condemned in different degrees.

For example, 9/11. It seems those committing the crime believed in what they were doing. But society still condemns them because they believe they were going against this human intuition of morality and goodness.

The rights of creation is one thing, but the rights of the Creator is much higher.

In Islam, the names of God are said to represent one glory, so that they are in essence one.

God in Islam has a right to be obeyed, adhered to, followed, and worshiped.


Just as humans have rights, the Creator has rights according to Islam. Breaking those rights cause no harm to the Creator however, it causes harm.

Moreover, humanity has a high purpose, of which ignoring, is being severely unjust to oneself and going against the right of oneself.

I understand this perspective. It just seems to me that non-Muslims are not twisting away from their humanity or heart intuition.

It seems to me, many of them are good people.

Moreover, it seems to me, that compassion and forbearance, is more praiseworthy of a reaction towards them even if it made them evil, then reacting with severe justice and wrath.