If god were real...

[downbeatplumb]

It's quite simple, look in scripture and you will not find anywhere that God created satan ie. the devil.

Let's take your reasoning into consideration and see if you still agree with yourself. You are saying God created the evil being satan and thus God is ultimately responsible for satans actions. Am I correct to this point, of coarse I am, you and others here have stated this many times and gave kudos for such a response. Now since you hold this as a truth let's apply it to you. You have raised a son, you have given him all he needs to be a responsible citizen, yet he turns out to be a notorious murderer of many people, a vile man full of hate for others, caring not for the actions of his life. How is it by your own reasoning that you should not be picked up and charged for the crimes your son has committed, he received the death penalty for his crimes, shouldn't you have to face the same possible sentence, he is your son after all.

Wasn't Satan one of the original angels!
If god did not create him did angels evolve?
Was there fucking in heaven?


And why does so much of the Old testament present Satan as not so much an acting out son as a peer of god?

Not so much an unruly son as a member of the gang that's formed a rival faction.

[Godscreated]

It's quite simple, look in scripture and you will not find anywhere that God created satan ie. the devil.

Let's take your reasoning into consideration and see if you still agree with yourself. You are saying God created the evil being satan and thus God is ultimately responsible for satans actions. Am I correct to this point, of coarse I am, you and others here have stated this many times and gave kudos for such a response. Now since you hold this as a truth let's apply it to you. You have raised a son, you have given him all he needs to be a responsible citizen, yet he turns out to be a notorious murderer of many people, a vile man full of hate for others, caring not for the actions of his life. How is it by your own reasoning that you should not be picked up and charged for the crimes your son has committed, he received the death penalty for his crimes, shouldn't you have to face the same possible sentence, he is your son after all.

Wasn't Satan one of the original angels!
If god did not create him did angels evolve?
Was there fucking in heaven?


And why does so much of the Old testament present Satan as not so much an acting out son as a peer of god?

Not so much an unruly son as a member of the gang that's formed a rival faction.

If you want to have a serious discussion on the subject, then please do and stop acting childish.

[CleanShavenJesus]

"What makes us so special? Why is there a God for us? What's the sense in it? Why do you put us at the center of the universe?"

The phrase "children of God" is used quite literally.

You mean children of Zeus.

[Tex]

Alright, here's how the system works in slightly-coherent Christian land:

First God. Then he created. In the creation was the physical universe we all love and know as well as angels ("angel" is the term for the species. Good ones are also called angels, but the bad ones are demons). The physical universe has time (obviously), but God and the angels do not (although they can jump in it if desired). Therefore, instantly at creation, the angels knew everything and made a timeless decision (so its not like they can change their mind later). God knew the decision that would be made, but made them anyway. This seems to be the question.

Its most similar to biological functions of parents. Some parents are told that if they were to conceive, the child would be mentally challenged. It doesn't make the parents want to have children less. The demons, essentially, are the mentally challenged. They actually know God, all that he can offer, and reject his authority. Actually, this doesn't hurt God at all. It's not like he can't poof them away. So, God actually creates a place where they can live outside of his reign, hell. The demons get what they want. However, funny thing about time, he would simultaneously have to move them into hell at creating them. He didn't. Therefore, we're stuck with them too. Why? They actually serve more good than bad. If you take the story in the garden literally, then we have an issue with biblical contradiction. I do not take it as a historical narrative. Instead, what I see is that all humans are inherently flawed and we need to fix this. The great thing about having kids is they want to be just like you. The bad thing about having kids is they want to boss you around too. So, if God has kids, they will be "little gods" (Psalm 82:6-7) and want to rule too. This is kinda immature when you think about it, but its to be expected. Anyway, back to demons. The demons try to mess with God's plan, but unintentionally help bring it about (Romans 8:28).

So how do the demons ever get to hell? Same way God got to Earth timely. He will put all angels in time (allowable) and allow those not-so-good angels to go where they want.

---

You mean children of Zeus.

Ya, that's what I meant. Thanks for contributing to the thread.

[Baalzebutt]

Alright, here's how the system works in slightly-coherent Christian land:

First God. Then he created. In the creation was the physical universe we all love and know as well as angels ("angel" is the term for the species. Good ones are also called angels, but the bad ones are demons). The physical universe has time (obviously), but God and the angels do not (although they can jump in it if desired). Therefore, instantly at creation, the angels knew everything and made a timeless decision (so its not like they can change their mind later). God knew the decision that would be made, but made them anyway. This seems to be the question.

Its most similar to biological functions of parents. Some parents are told that if they were to conceive, the child would be mentally challenged. It doesn't make the parents want to have children less. The demons, essentially, are the mentally challenged. They actually know God, all that he can offer, and reject his authority. Actually, this doesn't hurt God at all. It's not like he can't poof them away. So, God actually creates a place where they can live outside of his reign, hell. The demons get what they want. However, funny thing about time, he would simultaneously have to move them into hell at creating them. He didn't. Therefore, we're stuck with them too. Why? They actually serve more good than bad. If you take the story in the garden literally, then we have an issue with biblical contradiction. I do not take it as a historical narrative. Instead, what I see is that all humans are inherently flawed and we need to fix this. The great thing about having kids is they want to be just like you. The bad thing about having kids is they want to boss you around too. So, if God has kids, they will be "little gods" (Psalm 82:6-7) and want to rule too. This is kinda immature when you think about it, but its to be expected. Anyway, back to demons. The demons try to mess with God's plan, but unintentionally help bring it about (Romans 8:28).

So how do the demons ever get to hell? Same way God got to Earth timely. He will put all angels in time (allowable) and allow those not-so-good angels to go where they want.

---

You mean children of Zeus.

Ya, that's what I meant. Thanks for contributing to the thread.

Are you seriously equating a handicapped child with a demon?

This is the single worst analogy even placed on this forum.

Aside from bad analogies and theistic justifications, do you have an actual reason why "god didn't create satan"?

And, yes, I know you didn't make the original statement but you are trying to defend it.

---

If you want to have a serious discussion on the subject, then please do and stop acting childish.

He is not acting childish at all. He is asking very relevant questions in response to statements you made. We atheist tend to do that when faced with bald assertions.

By the way, I answered your question. Are you going to respond?

[CleanShavenJesus]

You mean children of Zeus.

Ya, that's what I meant. Thanks for contributing to the thread.

You missed my point.

[Baalzebutt]

Ya, that's what I meant. Thanks for contributing to the thread.

You missed my point.

I think Tex is Strudels slightly-more-intelligent brother.

You could shove the point right up his nose and would miss it.

[Tex]

Are you seriously equating a handicapped child with a demon?

This is the single worst analogy even placed on this forum.

Aside from bad analogies and theistic justifications, do you have an actual reason why "god didn't create satan"?

And, yes, I know you didn't make the original statement but you are trying to defend it.

I did not equate a handicapped child with a demon. That is the worst interpretation I have ever gotten from what I've written.

No parent says, "I hope my kid is handicapped!" after finding out they are pregnant. Parents want their kids to be as healthy as possible. If the child is handicapped, it is an atrocity to think that they are now lesser. In the same way, God did not want demons, but isn't going to poof them away either.

You missed my point.

I must have. I don't understand any reference for that in relation to my post other than trolling.

[Baalzebutt]

I did not equate a handicapped child with a demon. That is the worst interpretation I have ever gotten from what I've written.

No parent says, "I hope my kid is handicapped!" after finding out they are pregnant. Parents want their kids to be as healthy as possible. If the child is handicapped, it is an atrocity to think that they are now lesser. In the same way, God did not want demons, but isn't going to poof them away either.

The difference is that your god is omniscient which means he knew exactly what he was doing and how things would turn out.

Quit trying to remove the responsibility from your god. Either he is responsible for everything or he is responsible for nothing.

[CleanShavenJesus]

You missed my point.

I must have. I don't understand any reference for that in relation to my post other than trolling.

It was meant to show that I believe in Greek mythology. Zeus is the all-powerful, omniscent God. Not your god. Your god isn't real. Zeus is.

In other words, there's nothing that makes your God more real than Zeus.