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RE: Soul
March 29, 2013 at 7:39 pm
(This post was last modified: March 29, 2013 at 7:40 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Why limit yourselves to human experiences? Do androids dream of electric sheep?
(IOW, if dreams prove souls, wouldn't video games also prove souls?)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Soul
March 29, 2013 at 7:41 pm
I actually say thoughts and dreams are material (the brain drifting while asleep). I have no problem with the soul being used in these dreams though. The part that sparked my interest was that the conclusions need more stimulus than they are receiving. I figured it'd be more beneficial to those here to understand why I think quantity is immaterial first though.
The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
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RE: Soul
March 29, 2013 at 7:42 pm
(March 29, 2013 at 7:39 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Why limit yourselves to human experiences? Do androids dream of electric sheep?
(IOW, if dreams prove souls, wouldn't video games also prove souls?)
I am assuming for the sake of argument we have a soul, and asking, how do numbers prove a soul, while dreams/thoughts in general, don't.
What makes numbers so special is what I'm asking.
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RE: Soul
March 29, 2013 at 7:42 pm
Okay, let's take it as given that mathematical expressions represent real entities. What is your next step?
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RE: Soul
March 29, 2013 at 7:45 pm
(March 29, 2013 at 7:42 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: What makes numbers so special is what I'm asking.
...because it's a common apologetic, dead as long as any other but still meandering about in the graveyard that is the magical mind.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Soul
March 29, 2013 at 7:50 pm
(This post was last modified: March 29, 2013 at 8:01 pm by Mystic.)
(March 29, 2013 at 7:41 pm)Tex Wrote: I actually say thoughts and dreams are material (the brain drifting while asleep). I have no problem with the soul being used in these dreams though. The part that sparked my interest was that the conclusions need more stimulus than they are receiving. I figured it'd be more beneficial to those here to understand why I think quantity is immaterial first though.
So all our thoughts except for numbers are material? So our mind can logically say sentences that are material, experience pleasure, peace, mind, happiness, decide things, do decisions and remember events....and have a concept of oneself and all of this being material, but just mathematics is non-material? You don't find there is something wrong with that? There is nothing non-material the soul experiences but numbers?
To me, it seems, if we have a soul, then all our thoughts are non-material, even though there is systematic way of thoughts through the material world.
(March 29, 2013 at 7:42 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Okay, let's take it as given that mathematical expressions represent real entities. What is your next step?
Exactly, assume God exists, assume everything about numbers you believe, it being non-material, assume soul exists....just show how skeptics would come to know this is true as opposed to materialism.
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RE: Soul
March 29, 2013 at 9:47 pm
(March 29, 2013 at 3:41 am)Godschild Wrote: (March 29, 2013 at 2:41 am)cato123 Wrote: Trick fucking question. C'mon Tex, cowboy up. Be honest and explain to AF why you have to invoke the idea of an imaginary universe to allow the existence of a 'single oxygen atom'.
You make up a universe without God, so why are you hassling Tex.
You made up a universe with him, G-C. Stupid childish idea if you ever stopped to think about it....which you won't.
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RE: Soul
March 29, 2013 at 11:37 pm
MysticKnight Wrote:So all our thoughts except for numbers are material? So our mind can logically say sentences that are material, experience pleasure, peace, mind, happiness, decide things, do decisions and remember events....and have a concept of oneself and all of this being material, but just mathematics is non-material? You don't find there is something wrong with that? There is nothing non-material the soul experiences but numbers?
We're using "thoughts" in two senses now. We have the processing that includes the soul and the processing that doesn't. The physical processing will do most of the work, but some of the analysis is not (quantity, quality, and relation). If I'm shown a blue triangle, there are no activities of the soul for me to know its a blue triangle. If I'm shown multiple blue triangles and asked to count them, my soul has to process the quantity.
ChadWooters Wrote:Okay, let's take it as given that mathematical expressions represent real entities. What is your next step?
I don't know if you mean the same thing I do, or you're completely missing the mark =) If you mean mathematical expressions (numbers/quantity) represents (are truly within) real entities, we're cool, and my next step is to explain that since we perceive immaterial things, we have an immaterial organ (soul). Then I'm done. That really is all this proof does. It might be able to do more, but I haven't thought about it.
If you you mean that mathematical expressions (numbers/quantity) represent (act like but are not) real entities, my next step is to describe the proof again. Its not that the numbers are immaterial substances, but these immaterial things are "accidents" (Aristotle's terminology) to substances. Quantity is not material and cannot be sensed with a physical organ, hence the conclusion being that animals, knowing quantity, have souls.
MysticKnight Wrote:Exactly, assume God exists, assume everything about numbers you believe, it being non-material, assume soul exists....just show how skeptics would come to know this is true as opposed to materialism.
If the only options were materialism and my belief, I think I undid materialism in my first post. Quantity isn't material. If I have to undo skepticism, I don't think I can manage that. We'll end up with solipsism and me just being a figment of your imagination.
The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
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RE: Soul
March 30, 2013 at 12:05 am
I don't know what you mean by quantity isn't material. When there is two chairs, that is two material things existing....do you mean our ability to count is not material? I'm a little confused.
Another thing, how do you suppose kids learned to count and add? Wasn't it through practice and memory. When we have memory of dates, all this you are saying doesn't exist in the brain, only in the soul and is purely a process the soul goes through?
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RE: Soul
March 30, 2013 at 12:40 am
(This post was last modified: March 30, 2013 at 12:43 am by Whateverist.)
(March 29, 2013 at 5:55 pm)Tex Wrote: whateverist Wrote:Nice try. No need to beat yourself up though. We just hear the pitch for that particular brand of snake oil an awful lot around here. Your pitch can be mighty convincing if someone is looking to be convinced. I'm just not one of those.
More ignorant people will reject the advice of a doctor because the patient feels they, "know better". You claim your medicine will cure me of ignorance, and I claim the same. =)
I have no medicine for you and very little certainty. However I try my best not to fool myself in that regard. When it comes to epistemology, there are no doctors who know better, but plenty of snake oil salesmen.
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