Nobody believes abortion is murder

[thesummerqueen]

I'm just going to leave this here, because I don't think any discussion about abortion should be without it.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-6260.html

Abortion Law: Mother Denied Abortion, Then Had To Watch Baby Die

Nebraska’s new abortion law forced Danielle Deaver to live through ten excruciating days, waiting to give birth to a baby that she and her doctors knew would die minutes later, fighting for breath that would not come.

And that’s what happened. The one-pound, ten-ounce girl, Elizabeth, was born December 8th. Deaver and husband Robb watched, held and comforted the baby as it gasped for air, hoping she was not suffering. She died 15 minutes later.

[festive1]

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Kichi have you read this?

NT Coroner calls for abortion protocol

COMPERE: Now a story which may be disturbing to many. The Northern Territory's Coroner has called for protocols to be put in place in all hospitals and clinics in the territory to deal with an unusual situation. An abortion which resulted in the birth of a live baby.

The coroner's recommendation follows an inquest into the death of a baby born at the Darwin Private Hospital in July 1998. The baby's mother had been admitted to the hospital for a pregnancy termination but the delivery of an aborted fetus did not happen. Instead, a baby girl was born and died soon after.

Camille Funnell reports.

CAMILLE FUNNELL: It was a quarter to three in the morning in July 1998. Carey Williams, a registered midwife, had been called to one of the mother's rooms in the Darwin Private Hospital. The woman in the room had been booked in for a second trimester pregnancy termination. Nurse Williams was ready to help. She placed what she assumed was a fetus in a kidney dish and took it from the mother's room. It was then she heard a cry. It came from the baby in the kidney dish.

Nurse Williams told the Coroner's court she then realised the baby was older than the 19 weeks term she'd been told. Although premature, she says the baby was apparently health with no apparent abnormalities, its vital signs were good. That left Nurse Williams with what she described as a very big moral dilemma - what to do?

She said because the baby was making noises she couldn't just leave it in the kidney dish so she put the baby in a warm rug and checked the baby every 10 to 15 minutes. About 80 minutes later, at five past four in the morning, the baby died.

The Northern Territory Coroner was told the midwife had rung her supervisor seeking help while the baby was still alive, but no-one was available to help her. The Coroner's court was also told the midwife rang the woman's doctor, Dr Henry Chow, and told him the planned abortion had resulted in a live birth. The doctor's response, according to evidence to the court, was; "So?".

Today the Coroner found the doctor should have taken responsibility that morning. He should have attended at the hospital. Coroner Greg Cavanagh says protocols are needed to ensure that children who survive a termination are, at the very least, assessed for age and viability by a medical practitioner.

The Coroner accepted evidence that the baby, given its premature state, was facing an inevitable death but he says the deceased should never have been referred to as 'a fetus'. She had 18 minutes of life. Greg Cavanagh says the fact her birth was unexpected and not the desired outcome from an abortion should not result in her and others like her being perceived as anything less than a complete human being.

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[Aractus]

Hence the coronial inquest.

[festive1]

Hence the coronial inquest.

It's still a highly flawed example of abortion, and not representative of abortion in general.

[KichigaiNeko]

I'm just going to leave this here, because I don't think any discussion about abortion should be without it.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-6260.html

Abortion Law: Mother Denied Abortion, Then Had To Watch Baby Die

Nebraska’s new abortion law forced Danielle Deaver to live through ten excruciating days, waiting to give birth to a baby that she and her doctors knew would die minutes later, fighting for breath that would not come.

And that’s what happened. The one-pound, ten-ounce girl, Elizabeth, was born December 8th. Deaver and husband Robb watched, held and comforted the baby as it gasped for air, hoping she was not suffering. She died 15 minutes later.

With incredible pain and suffering....fucking bloody xtians

[Brayton.l]

I'm just going to leave this here, because I don't think any discussion about abortion should be without it.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-6260.html

Abortion Law: Mother Denied Abortion, Then Had To Watch Baby Die

With incredible pain and suffering....fucking bloody xtians

These are the same people who fought in Kansas, (I believe) to force families who wanted to remove feeding tubes/ life support and ease a loved ones suffering and allow them to die with dignity, to remove them and "Let god decide" while they starved to death, because that would be "gods will" then did an about face and lobbied congress to intervene when Terry Schiavo's husband tried to do just that.

And they have the audacity to try to preach "morality" to us heathens.

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

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This is a recent post of mine on my FB page.
Before anyone starts flaming me, please read it and consider how I came to this conclusion.

And let me add that, of course there are many instances where I would say "yes, an abortion at this stage is the only choice". I have common sense, so lets not go there.

First, let me say this up front. I am pro-choice. "I believe abortions should be safe, legal, and rare." (credit, Bill Clinton) A woman has the right to choose. She knows her body better than any legislator.

As many of you know, I am an Anti-theist. I actively believe there is no god. Of any kind. I consider myself a Secular Humanist.

This being said, I am now coming out against abortions after the first trimester of pregnancy.

Obviously, my stance comes not from any religious and or spiritual place.
It comes from my gut. I think of it as a humanist idea. A SECULAR Humanist idea.
It originates from deep inside me. It all comes down to 2 little words. Two words. Two powerful words that trump all others.
Two words that I also think of when I see industrialized farming. Slaughter houses, vivisection, etc. Two little words that personify every degradation of humanity, every child that dies from hunger or curable diseases in countries that do not have access to life saving drugs. It's the idea that Mother Teresa never grasped. (Mother Teresa lived to watch the weak and sick die horribly and painfully, offering them little or no comfort. Consider your bubble burst on that illusion)

Those words are indivisible in my mind. Like cause and effect, I cant grasp one without feeling the other. I hope that they will always guide my decisions.

They are Suffering and Empathy.

When does a human embryo become capable of suffering?
How can I imagine a partial birth abortion without feeling empathy?
I cannot. All of my being cries out against it. Suffering is suffering.
I cannot abide the cognitive dissonance that must be maintained if I say that abortions are without question, and at anytime during the pregnancy, a choice of the woman.

Again, the question that I must face. When does a human embryo become capable of suffering?
I really don't know the exact answer to this question, but I prefer to err on the side of sooner rather than later.

I don't see myself wavering on this. Perhaps I have friends here whom have had to make this choice. If you know me, than you already know that I would not dream of judging you. But how do I say that I am against the suffering of animals, or children starving, of having empathy for my fellow man, and remain silent on this issue?

I will let my conscience guide me.

[Mystical]

Again, the question that I must face. When does a human embryo become capable of suffering?
I really don't know the exact answer to this question, but I prefer to err on the side of sooner rather than later.

I've been refuted on this piece of information as being a pertinent argument, but don't know the reasoning why. My sister is in school to be an RN and she says that the nerves that register pain are formed at appx 8wks.

I like your post, alot. It takes quite a bit to put an issue that serious up on a facebook profile that your friends and family will see.

[Brayton.l]

Thank you, you have no idea how much that means to me.
I have been sitting on that for several years before I finally "vocalized" it.
I know the flack that I may take for this, but I have a hard time trying to envision a baby as a "parasite".
I consider myself enlightened, but some ideas strike me as self serving and immoral.
When the full on flaming begins, trust me, I do not come to this fight unarmed.
Prepare yourselves.
I have.

P.S. For any of you "right to lifers" who think to use me as an atheist poster boy. I WILL DISAPPOINT YOU.

[fr0d0]

The legal case is built on suffering and empathy I think. I think it's a red herring, and a plea to emotion.

Rationally, a person exists from conception.

[KichigaiNeko]

No fr0d0. A "person" exists from birth and not before otherwise baptism's a non-event.