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Nobody believes abortion is murder
RE: Nobody believes abortion is murder
(April 6, 2013 at 9:14 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote: A lot of the "abortion" argument seems to stick it's dick into the late term abortions, which are the most heavily regulated and risky ones.

This seems to be precisely what you're doing.

Yours is another plea to emotion. We can empathise with a shared organ, but that's where we draw the line.

Your argument should defend the rights of all sentient animals (ethically I'd agree).
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RE: Nobody believes abortion is murder
(April 6, 2013 at 9:14 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote: Its really stupid -- if it's not human yet, then it is okay to destroy it.

One can always make another pre-human anytime.

If it's not human yet???

If it's not a human, you should be able to provide evidence that it's something else. Please assert that it's a fish, please, please please....
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RE: Nobody believes abortion is murder
(April 6, 2013 at 5:24 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: How do you work that out kitch?

Hilarious you're arguing religion to push choice too Wink

Don't you know your own religion?

What is hilarious is religions adherence to the fact that a child is not accepted into said religion until it is "baptised/ naming ceremony/ had it's dick cut" up until then it is personae non gratae. AND you want to have a bunch of undifferentiated cells declared a fully functioning person of your religion?


Your stupidity is what I was striving to expose and I did, Thanks fr0d0
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Nobody believes abortion is murder
(April 1, 2013 at 11:04 pm)Maelstrom Wrote:
(April 1, 2013 at 10:55 pm)catfish Wrote: So far in this thread we have already had one person deny or attempt to diminish the fact that an embryo at any stage of developement is an individual human being...

Oh, gosh, not this again. No one is disputing the fact that a human fetus is a human. Yet again, you just love to confuse being human with personhood. A fetus simply does not have personhood.
The Supreme Court basically decided the same thing about black slaves in the 1857 Dred Scott case...that slaves were property of their owners and were not citizens and that they had no rights the courts had to recognize...It was law, but what do you think? Was the law just, or was it wrong?

Despite the current abortion laws that deny personhood to the human fetus...I think those laws are wrong...I want to see an end to unlimited access to abortion on demand and heavily restricted only to cases involving rape and in cases where the life of the mother is threatened....Pro Abortionists seem to love that blood!
"Inside every Liberal there's a Totalitarian screaming to get out"

[Image: freddy_03.jpg]

Quote: JohnDG...
Quote:It was an awful mistake to characterize based upon religion. I should not judge any theist that way, I must remember what I said in order to change.
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RE: Nobody believes abortion is murder
(April 7, 2013 at 8:43 am)catfish Wrote: If it's not human yet???

If it's not a human, you should be able to provide evidence that it's something else. Please assert that it's a fish, please, please please....

I think it's one of these:

[Image: Alien-The_Chestburster.png]
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Nobody believes abortion is murder
(April 7, 2013 at 8:43 am)catfish Wrote:
(April 6, 2013 at 9:14 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote: Its really stupid -- if it's not human yet, then it is okay to destroy it.

One can always make another pre-human anytime.

If it's not human yet???

If it's not a human, you should be able to provide evidence that it's something else. Please assert that it's a fish, please, please please....

Just for you catfudz....Tongue

It's a fish
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Nobody believes abortion is murder
(April 7, 2013 at 8:53 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote:
(April 6, 2013 at 5:24 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: How do you work that out kitch?

Hilarious you're arguing religion to push choice too Wink

Don't you know your own religion?

What is hilarious is religions adherence to the fact that a child is not accepted into said religion until it is "baptised/ naming ceremony/ had it's dick cut" up until then it is personae non gratae. AND you want to have a bunch of undifferentiated cells declared a fully functioning person of your religion?


Your stupidity is what I was striving to expose and I did, Thanks fr0d0

You do know that the salvation army don't do baptism right Kitch?

So much for it being such an integrated part of my religion.
And child baptism doesn't make the child a Christian. It's the parents saying that they promise to raise the child in a Christian environment and to give thanks to god for it.
Most people don't seem to understand that and think it's some kind of magic free membership pass. Sadly that really is never the case.
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RE: Nobody believes abortion is murder
(April 7, 2013 at 10:36 am)fr0d0 Wrote:
(April 7, 2013 at 8:53 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Don't you know your own religion?

What is hilarious is religions adherence to the fact that a child is not accepted into said religion until it is "baptised/ naming ceremony/ had it's dick cut" up until then it is personae non gratae. AND you want to have a bunch of undifferentiated cells declared a fully functioning person of your religion?


Your stupidity is what I was striving to expose and I did, Thanks fr0d0

You do know that the salvation army don't do baptism right Kitch?

So much for it being such an integrated part of my religion.
And child baptism doesn't make the child a Christian. It's the parents saying that they promise to raise the child in a Christian environment and to give thanks to god for it.
Most people don't seem to understand that and think it's some kind of magic free membership pass. Sadly that really is never the case.
That's true fr0d0...and what Kitchy Kitchy Koo doesn't realize is that a lot of Christian denominations believe the same way you do, including my own...at one time in our country, according to the law, blacks were considered property and the courts didn't have to recognize them as being entitled to any kind of rights...In some cases blacks were considered to be only part human...the laws of our land basically said blacks were not entitled to personhood...were those laws right, or were those laws wrong?
"Inside every Liberal there's a Totalitarian screaming to get out"

[Image: freddy_03.jpg]

Quote: JohnDG...
Quote:It was an awful mistake to characterize based upon religion. I should not judge any theist that way, I must remember what I said in order to change.
Reply
RE: Nobody believes abortion is murder
I'm confused as to what we're arguing about. Is it personhood? Because a person is defined as a self-sufficed individual.
Is it being human? Because isn't that when the dna from the egg and sperm combine?
What is being argued!? Where do we start? Is there any common ground where we can say an embryo is not life, or a fetus is life?
Why is potential life considered life? When it's only potential life?
I'm so confused by you guys. I know my stance on the matter, but that doesn't matter in relation to everyone else and that's what's important.
The constitutionality in US law mentions viability?

Overview of Supreme Court Abortion Law
Quote:Roe ruled (7-2) that though states did have an interest in protecting fetal life, such interest was not "compelling" until the fetus was viable (placing viability at the start of the third trimester).2 Thus, all state abortion laws that forbade abortion during the first six months of pregnancy were thereby invalidated. Third trimester abortions were declared to be legal only if the pregnancy threatened the life or health of the mother. The Doe verdict, however, defined "health of the mother" in such broad terms, that any prohibitions to 3rd trimester abortions were essentially eliminated.3 According to Justice Harry Blackmun's majority opinion, a woman's health includes her "physical, emotional, psychological, (and) familial" well-being, and should include considerations about the woman's age.4 "All these factors may relate to health," Blackmun argued, so as to give "the attending physician the room he needs to make his best medical judgment."5 In other words, if a woman is upset about her 3rd trimester pregnancy (psychological health), her doctor has the necessary legal basis to abort.

In 1976, abortion again made its way to the Supreme Court, in Planned Parenthood v. Danforth, where all state laws requiring spousal or parental consent were thrown out. Thornburg v. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, a 1986 case that was split 5-4, struck down all manner of abortion restrictions including the requirement to inform women about abortion alternatives, the requirement to educate women about prenatal development, the requirement to inform women of the potential risks of abortion, the requirement to keep records of abortion, and the requirement that 3rd trimester abortions be performed in such a way as to spare the life of the viable child. All these were argued to be violations of a woman's right to privacy. In 1989, however, in Webster v. Reproductive Health Services, Roe was dealt a serious blow. The court, in a 5-4 opinion, let stand a Missouri statute stating that human life begins at conception, and declared that the state does have a "compelling" interest in fetal life throughout pregnancy.6 The trimester/viability framework of Roe was basically thrown out, but Justice O'Connor, despite arguing for essentially the same thing in prior case law, withheld her endorsement from the portion of the Webster opinion which would have actually overturned Roe. As such, federal abortion laws remained largely unchanged, but the rationale for such laws began to crumble. Many states took this opportunity to put more restrictive state measures in place. In 1990, two cases (Hodgson v. Minnesota and Ohio v. Akron Center for Reproductive Health) ruled that states requiring parental consent before a minor could have an abortion must allow for a judicial bypass.

In 1992, Planned Parenthood v. Casey reached the Supreme Court. The right to legal abortion was upheld in the Casey decision, but a 24-hour waiting period was put in place, as well as an informed consent requirement, a parental consent provision, and a record keeping mandate. States were also given more discretion as to when viability begins. Casey was decided 5-4, but the opinion of the Court was essentially divided into three factions. Justices Blackmun and Stevens did not endorse the new burdens placed on legal abortion, but were willing to concede to gain the support of Justices O'Connor, Kennedy and Souter, who believed that Casey was a happy medium between giving states more control while still upholding the basic conclusions of Roe. Justices Rehnquist, White, Scalia and Thomas dissented altogether, believing Roe had no Constitutional basis to begin with and thereby felt no obligation to uphold it. Today, the language of Casey, more than Roe, serves as the dominant precedent in abortion law.

The last abortion-related case to reach the Supreme Court was Gonzales v. Carhart, which was decided in 2007 by a 5-4 vote. It upheld a 2003 congressional ban on the abortion procedure known as intact dilation and evacuation—also known as dilation and extraction (D&X) or partial-birth abortion. The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003 came in response to the Supreme Court's ruling in Stenberg v. Carhart (2000) that Nebraska's partial-birth abortion ban violated the Federal Constitution as interpreted by Roe and Casey. Late-term abortionist, LeRoy Carhart, brought the suit against Nebraska Attorney General, Don Stenburg. The verdict was decided 5-4 on the basis that the Nebraska law did not include an exception for preserving the "health" of the mother–though it did include an exception if D&X was deemed necessary to save the life of the mother. The Court rejected Nebraska's contention that "safe alternatives" to partial-birth abortion made the health exception unnecessary. Three years later, Congress essentially reversed the Court by concluding that there was "a moral, medical, and ethical consensus that partial-birth abortion is a gruesome and inhumane procedure that is never medically necessary and should be prohibited."7 The federal Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act also defined the procedure more specifically than the Nebraska statute had done previously. When LeRoy Carhart challenged the constitutionality of the ruling, the Eighth Circuit of Appeals ruled in his favor, causing U.S. Attorney General, Alberto Gonzales, to appeal the ruling to the Supreme Court. The 2007 verdict upheld the ban, ruling that it was not overly vague nor that the lack of a health exception imposed an undue burden on a woman's right to abortion. Though the arguments had changed very little between 2000 and 2007, the make up of the Court had. The retirement of Sandra Day O'Connor (who opposed the ban in 2000) and William Rehnquist, along with the appointment of John Roberts and Samuel Alito, ultimately reversed the earlier outcome.

Despite, the legal wranglings which are documented in the cases above, abortion law has remained virtually unchanged since Roe was first decided. The single decision of seven, non-elected justices continues to define federal abortion policy decades after it first invalidated 200 years of state law.
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!

Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.

Dead wrong.  The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.

Quote:Some people deserve hell.

I say again:  No exceptions.  Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it.  As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.

[Image: tumblr_n1j4lmACk61qchtw3o1_500.gif]
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RE: Nobody believes abortion is murder
(April 7, 2013 at 10:36 am)fr0d0 Wrote:




You do know that the salvation army don't do baptism right Kitch?
Quote:No I did not fr0d0. (learn something everyday) So you have no "ceremony" to welcome newborns or new rcruits to your brand of xtianity?

[quote='fr0d0' pid='428387' dateline='1365345382']
And child baptism doesn't make the child a Christian. It's the parents saying that they promise to raise the child in a Christian environment and to give thanks to god for it.
Most people don't seem to understand that and think it's some kind of magic free membership pass. Sadly that really is never the case.

I guess that is the who issue with religion. What it says is irrelevant as opposed to what the general punters believe in?
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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