RE: Thoughts on next video...
April 5, 2013 at 10:45 am
(This post was last modified: April 5, 2013 at 10:55 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Well, I think that both you and I could spend days on end exploring all the ways in which society is preferable to the wild (and probably at least a few ways in which it isn't) - specifically with reference to human beings and other forms of life in our periphery (and again with the provision that for some forms of life - civilization isn't so important or beneficial - and could perhaps, instead, be an entirely destructive or negative force). I don't think that it's importance (and again especially to us) would be a point of contention between you and I. I also don't think that "because it is" really does that very palpable sense of importance much justice. This part, for the most part, is definitely not something I can't understand.
The part that I find a little more difficult to comprehend, is how this importance has become a sort of goal -for evolution- , or at least that's what I'm getting here. How, further, you've come to perceive that evolution has -any- goals, let alone this one. Or, to toss out a nod to life (a subject I swoon over), why civilization would be -the- goal, as opposed to autotrophism (upon which civilization and all other forms of life depend).
To toss our hypothetical alien species back into the mix, and to meld some of the things above, suppose that there where a species of creature that we might call a "sentient plant". It would be no stretch to assume that this species would be a master of organic chemistry (because our own, non-sentient earth plants already are..and without any sentience whatsoever are actually more competent chemists than we). Why they would require civilization to become something our own "mundane" terrestrial plants have become without civilization would be a mystery. You can extend this example to any or all areas of the sciences and art the heart desires - all those things that factored into your appraisial of why civilization is important. I offer this up for two reasons. One, that both of us seem to be at least a little bit intriugued by the possibility of alien life - and because I think a point about alien life that bears mentioning is that there are no requirements for it to have followed the same path as us (even if it ends up in some, all, or more of the places we find ourselves with regards to dominance or science - even art) - but also because there are no requirements that it be anything like us at all. Even my sentient plants are a pretty unimaginative take of what alien life might be - if, for no other reason, than that I have imagined alien life along the lines of something that exists here on earth.
Now, to bring it on home (if you'll excuse the phrase) and talk about terrestrial life - especially with that hypothetical alien species as a counterpoint. I wouldn't begrudge you (or anyone) for considering civilization in toto as one of the most momentous aspects of our existences here, something very important to us. But I would question the notion that it is any more momentous, from an evolutionary perspective, than the myriad other expressions of life we find here. Nothing about civilization is a product of our being "more or less" evolved than anything else, in any precise or meaningful sense of the word. I would question the sense of calling it a goal (really the only point of contention I think we have any fertile grounds for discussion on), as we don't understand evolution to have functioned this way (or even to be able to function this way - really think about that, how would it?). There's this really interesting point in the history of evolutionary biology, close to it's beginnings, where the view of life and evolution was as thus.
-A steady enhancing force or process, tumblers clicking in a lock, climbing the neatly ordered ladder of life, with all life proceeding towards the goal of evolving into something a bit like western scholars. All life being categorized (including other human life...though the folks at the time maintained subhuman-mostly because of those things you mentioned as being the working bits of why civilization is important) from the perspective of how close or distant it seemed to be, to the average caucasion in a funny dress sitting at his desk at university.
Who thought this? You guessed it, western scholars (double anthro). The notion might seem quaint to you or I now, but I would ask you to seriously compare this to your expectations of alien life (or even life here), and what would be required for them to have achieved those things which comprise the measure of value you place in civilization.
I suppose, what I would hope to able to express to you is the value and equal wonder of the evolution of the lowly ant, or of the crocus. The lack of any goal on the part of the agent in this endeavor - and the immense wonder and enhanced value that the whole endeavour is granted when figure out how to remove our human perspectives of things like goals from the equation. To perhaps express why certain tendencies in our thought are, and should remain, entirely alien to our understanding of evolution - if only to have a clearer picture of it. At the same time I'd like to be able to come closer to you on your position of why you feel or believe that behind any of this (in some way) there's a creative entity. Perhaps, to put it another way, I'm imagining that some creative force we're both willing to call a god "didit". I'm not anguishing over how goddidit, because I can accept that we just don't know. However, from what we do know, it is difficult for me to see why I would assume that we, or civilization, is some sort of goal that this creative force had (and I think that you'll appreciate my situation..because I'll be damned if there isn't alot happening on this planet to choose from if we're looking to find out what might have been this forces goal, agreed? I mean, why not propose that the creative force had a metallurgy hobby - and conceived of earth as a giant smelter to amuse itself with novel minerals -ourselves and all other things being little more than a byproduct?). There doesn't seem to be anything in evidence for this proposition, and certainly not from the corner of evolutionary biology. However, I appreciate that you see something that I do not. I'd love to see what that is.
The part that I find a little more difficult to comprehend, is how this importance has become a sort of goal -for evolution- , or at least that's what I'm getting here. How, further, you've come to perceive that evolution has -any- goals, let alone this one. Or, to toss out a nod to life (a subject I swoon over), why civilization would be -the- goal, as opposed to autotrophism (upon which civilization and all other forms of life depend).
To toss our hypothetical alien species back into the mix, and to meld some of the things above, suppose that there where a species of creature that we might call a "sentient plant". It would be no stretch to assume that this species would be a master of organic chemistry (because our own, non-sentient earth plants already are..and without any sentience whatsoever are actually more competent chemists than we). Why they would require civilization to become something our own "mundane" terrestrial plants have become without civilization would be a mystery. You can extend this example to any or all areas of the sciences and art the heart desires - all those things that factored into your appraisial of why civilization is important. I offer this up for two reasons. One, that both of us seem to be at least a little bit intriugued by the possibility of alien life - and because I think a point about alien life that bears mentioning is that there are no requirements for it to have followed the same path as us (even if it ends up in some, all, or more of the places we find ourselves with regards to dominance or science - even art) - but also because there are no requirements that it be anything like us at all. Even my sentient plants are a pretty unimaginative take of what alien life might be - if, for no other reason, than that I have imagined alien life along the lines of something that exists here on earth.
Now, to bring it on home (if you'll excuse the phrase) and talk about terrestrial life - especially with that hypothetical alien species as a counterpoint. I wouldn't begrudge you (or anyone) for considering civilization in toto as one of the most momentous aspects of our existences here, something very important to us. But I would question the notion that it is any more momentous, from an evolutionary perspective, than the myriad other expressions of life we find here. Nothing about civilization is a product of our being "more or less" evolved than anything else, in any precise or meaningful sense of the word. I would question the sense of calling it a goal (really the only point of contention I think we have any fertile grounds for discussion on), as we don't understand evolution to have functioned this way (or even to be able to function this way - really think about that, how would it?). There's this really interesting point in the history of evolutionary biology, close to it's beginnings, where the view of life and evolution was as thus.
-A steady enhancing force or process, tumblers clicking in a lock, climbing the neatly ordered ladder of life, with all life proceeding towards the goal of evolving into something a bit like western scholars. All life being categorized (including other human life...though the folks at the time maintained subhuman-mostly because of those things you mentioned as being the working bits of why civilization is important) from the perspective of how close or distant it seemed to be, to the average caucasion in a funny dress sitting at his desk at university.
Who thought this? You guessed it, western scholars (double anthro). The notion might seem quaint to you or I now, but I would ask you to seriously compare this to your expectations of alien life (or even life here), and what would be required for them to have achieved those things which comprise the measure of value you place in civilization.
I suppose, what I would hope to able to express to you is the value and equal wonder of the evolution of the lowly ant, or of the crocus. The lack of any goal on the part of the agent in this endeavor - and the immense wonder and enhanced value that the whole endeavour is granted when figure out how to remove our human perspectives of things like goals from the equation. To perhaps express why certain tendencies in our thought are, and should remain, entirely alien to our understanding of evolution - if only to have a clearer picture of it. At the same time I'd like to be able to come closer to you on your position of why you feel or believe that behind any of this (in some way) there's a creative entity. Perhaps, to put it another way, I'm imagining that some creative force we're both willing to call a god "didit". I'm not anguishing over how goddidit, because I can accept that we just don't know. However, from what we do know, it is difficult for me to see why I would assume that we, or civilization, is some sort of goal that this creative force had (and I think that you'll appreciate my situation..because I'll be damned if there isn't alot happening on this planet to choose from if we're looking to find out what might have been this forces goal, agreed? I mean, why not propose that the creative force had a metallurgy hobby - and conceived of earth as a giant smelter to amuse itself with novel minerals -ourselves and all other things being little more than a byproduct?). There doesn't seem to be anything in evidence for this proposition, and certainly not from the corner of evolutionary biology. However, I appreciate that you see something that I do not. I'd love to see what that is.
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