Posts: 66329
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Intelligent design type evolution vs naturalism type evolution.
April 6, 2013 at 12:14 pm
(April 6, 2013 at 12:11 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: However we are not out of the woods yet. I mainly want to know how "An ion-powered pump for expelling substances from the cell might then have mutated to form the basis of a rotary motor" is possible without direction towards that? Or does it get improved in expelling substances until it forms a rotary motor?
Why would direction be required? It's not as though the bacterium were sitting around going "hey fellas, got any ideas for how we might effect a rudimentary rotary motor?"
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 8214
Threads: 394
Joined: November 2, 2011
Reputation:
44
RE: Intelligent design type evolution vs naturalism type evolution.
April 6, 2013 at 12:16 pm
(April 6, 2013 at 12:14 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (April 6, 2013 at 12:11 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: However we are not out of the woods yet. I mainly want to know how "An ion-powered pump for expelling substances from the cell might then have mutated to form the basis of a rotary motor" is possible without direction towards that? Or does it get improved in expelling substances until it forms a rotary motor?
Why would direction be required? It's not as though the bacterium were sitting around going "hey fellas, got any ideas for how we might effect a rudimentary rotary motor?"
I mean it directed by being advantageous and natural selection then making the advantageous keeping piling up till it get's to the new function.
Posts: 66329
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Intelligent design type evolution vs naturalism type evolution.
April 6, 2013 at 12:19 pm
If it's advantageous, and advantage piles up, then why do we need to invoke direction?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 8214
Threads: 394
Joined: November 2, 2011
Reputation:
44
RE: Intelligent design type evolution vs naturalism type evolution.
April 6, 2013 at 12:22 pm
(April 6, 2013 at 12:19 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If it's advantageous, and advantage piles up, then why do we need to invoke direction?
Well, I mean that would be direction, by natural selection. However how is it heading towards the other function by that method?
What is it improving upon, till it get's towards rotary system?
Posts: 66329
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Intelligent design type evolution vs naturalism type evolution.
April 6, 2013 at 12:31 pm
(This post was last modified: April 6, 2013 at 12:33 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Except that it isn't direction, by anything. In the sense that we might look back and say "that's the direction it took" as in a specific path - it's passable for conveying what we mean.....but here's the kicker:
The language we use to consider or convey some concept influences how we perceive it. Often, especially in something like this - so far removed from the experience available to us in forming the language and words and associated connections- the terms we might choose have the effect of fucking with us massively.
The statement that followed this one makes for a dramatic example of this.
Quote:However how is it heading towards the other function by that method?
What is it improving upon, till it get's towards rotary system?
It's not "heading towards" anything. The organism is simply surviving, persisting. It's not "improving upon" anything, the organism is simply surviving, persisting. There is no identifiable goal or destination to head towards. There is no criteria or measurement (or measuring authority) to judge or affect "improvement".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 8214
Threads: 394
Joined: November 2, 2011
Reputation:
44
RE: Intelligent design type evolution vs naturalism type evolution.
April 6, 2013 at 12:44 pm
(April 6, 2013 at 12:31 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It's not "heading towards" anything. The organism is simply surviving, persisting. It's not "improving upon" anything, the organism is simply surviving, persisting. There is no identifiable goal or destination to head towards. There is no criteria or measurement (or measuring authority) to judge or affect "improvement".
However you state it, how is surviving by series of mutations go towards the function of rotary system?
Or how did it go towards that direction? Or how was it possible that it went in that direction?
Posts: 66329
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Intelligent design type evolution vs naturalism type evolution.
April 6, 2013 at 12:45 pm
(This post was last modified: April 6, 2013 at 12:46 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It doesn't, and that's what I'm trying to express to you. It's not going towards it. It's possible to end up there in that if you arrange the structure of an organisms anatomy in a certain way it is recognizable to us as a "rudimentary rotary engine".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 8214
Threads: 394
Joined: November 2, 2011
Reputation:
44
RE: Intelligent design type evolution vs naturalism type evolution.
April 6, 2013 at 12:45 pm
(April 6, 2013 at 12:45 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It's not going towards it.
Then it will never get there.
Posts: 66329
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Intelligent design type evolution vs naturalism type evolution.
April 6, 2013 at 12:48 pm
(This post was last modified: April 6, 2013 at 12:49 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I'm not sure why you think that? Things find themselves in places all the time, without having ever intended to go there, made any effort to do so, or even realized that they were moving, or that there was a "there" or that "they" were "going" to "there". Rocks, for example.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 8214
Threads: 394
Joined: November 2, 2011
Reputation:
44
RE: Intelligent design type evolution vs naturalism type evolution.
April 6, 2013 at 12:49 pm
Well again semantics Rhythm. Remember it's SMALL changes over time. It doesn't just get re-arranged and voila, you have a complex system.
|
