Show me your proof

[A_Nony_Mouse]

You might be able to improve this argument if you understood statistics and physics. But unfortunately you do not.

I'll do a proof. Nobody better steal it, cause I made it up all my self. And since I made it up all myself, it probably wont work well, if at all.

"Cause and effect" doesn't actually exist as some ethereal governing principle, but nevertheless is what we perceive when examining the world. Theoretically, if matter or electromagnetic forces acted differently, we would get different effects from causes. Our universe is quantitatively coherent, or, more scientifically termed, we have a conservation of mass/energy. However, this law is the same "cause and effect" thing, just expressed differently. Conservation is not some ethereal governing principle, but it is simply how the universe operates. But, there could be universe X where energy was able to be created. If friction worked in the opposite, energy would constantly be created. Or, universe X could randomly create mass.

You forgot to point out either those would require mass and energy NOT to be the same thing. And that would imply a universe without gravity or electrostatic force and thus no matter at all and thus you are imagining an impossible set of conditions.

Or Hershey bars. Or bunnies. Or all sorts of different things. In fact, if we imagine a lack of cause and effect to a universe, there is an infinite possibility for what the effect might be for any given cause. That's actually what I want to do here: don't use the presuppositions the universe gives us naturally, but instead think of possibilities without the regular limits.

But any "limit" you imagine you can change has to be connected to everything else as it is here OR you cannot use words like mass or energy or bunnies. Remove any connection between things and all of things can no longer exist.

The possibility of effect is not based on cause, so we can say it is baseless or random.

Random is not restricted, so the effect has an endless or infinite amount of possibilities.

When you can show more than three outcomes (on edge) for a coin toss that might make sense. Obviously you know nothing all the known possible statistical distributions. OR as with your mass and energy and bunnies there is no statistics at all. Everything is non-random and ...

Out of the infinite possibility for chaotic universes, there is only one possibility for our ordered universe.

Our universe is impossible to exist. lim(x->∞) 1/x = 0

... therefore the limit equation is false.

The universe shouldn't make sense. We should have bunnies poofing into existence all over the place while gravity sporadically turns on and off. Instead, we have order. Therefore, I argue design.

So I have to recommend you learn what the words you are using means and the consequences of those meanings. The best you are doing is saying imagine a universe where there is only magic. That is unrelated to any conceivable reality.

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...
Therefore, I argue design.

See another of my posts from today where I demonstrate with a few examples the design is not intelligent but incompetent. Alternatively you can argue the design is malevolent but it is impossible to argue it is intelligent.

[pocaracas]

If magic is possible then.... I'll have some of that, please!

[The Grand Nudger]

I know right! I'll take two helpings of magic and also whatever share the guy sitting next to me is supposed to have had (don't make me fucking cut you!).

[A_Nony_Mouse]

If magic is possible then.... I'll have some of that, please!

Just a little bit of magic in an essentially the same universe is the stuff of fantasy. Any little bit of it violates all known laws of physics. Magic can create matter or energy without conservation. Without conservation nothing in our universe can be as it is.

I will not argue our ideas of physics are fundamentally correct but rather if they are not then we cannot have this discussion as we understand nothing of this universe.

OTOH a universe entirely of magic has no rules and nothing like our universe is possible.

Therefore to have a recognizable universe there either is or is not magic. A little bit of magic is an untenable possibility.

[pocaracas]

One helping should be enough for you to conjure infinite helpings!
Magic makes magic far easier than money makes money.

[A_Nony_Mouse]

One helping should be enough for you to conjure infinite helpings!
Magic makes magic far easier than money makes money.

Let me be so bold as to name that disproof of magic, conjuro ad absurdem.

[Tex]

You forgot to point out either those would require mass and energy NOT to be the same thing. And that would imply a universe without gravity or electrostatic force and thus no matter at all and thus you are imagining an impossible set of conditions.

Well, I thought I did by stating there is one law of conservation of mass/energy. I'll state it better next time.

But any "limit" you imagine you can change has to be connected to everything else as it is here OR you cannot use words like mass or energy or bunnies. Remove any connection between things and all of things can no longer exist.

Those were just examples. My proof is not "limited" to those. =p

When you can show more than three outcomes (on edge) for a coin toss that might make sense. Obviously you know nothing all the known possible statistical distributions. OR as with your mass and energy and bunnies there is no statistics at all. Everything is non-random and ...

A coin toss only has 3 options, yes, but I'm trying to describe a infinite-sided die roll. Since we're not rolling for Order vs. Disorder (coin toss, no edge) but we're rolling for every cause and effect scenario out there ever (there is no actual "law" outside of our minds dictating cause and effect), the ratio is not 1:1 but 1:∞.

Out of the infinite possibility for chaotic universes, there is only one possibility for our ordered universe.

Our universe is impossible to exist. lim(x->∞) 1/x = 0

... therefore the limit equation is false.

I worded this poorly. I should have said, "Opposed to the infinite possibility for chaos, there is only one possibility for an ordered cause and effect equation." However, I was trying to encompass the whole universe and just messed it all up. Sorry about that.

So I have to recommend you learn what the words you are using means and the consequences of those meanings. The best you are doing is saying imagine a universe where there is only magic. That is unrelated to any conceivable reality.

I'm trying to convey the absurdity of the existence of cause and effect. And even magic is more cause and effect (I say X while doing Y and Z will happen). I'm talking about complete randomness. No equation, no reason, no process, just action.

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Tex,

The sun will burn out, the earth will become uninhabitable, and galaxies will collide.

At best, you are arguing for poor design.

But the sun burning out has a logical reason to it. There is a coherency to our universe that does not statistically make sense.

[pocaracas]

"Opposed to the infinite possibility for chaos, there is only one possibility for an ordered cause and effect equation."

You don't know that there is only one possibility.
All you know is that there is at least one possibility.

[Tex]

Our universe is impossible to exist. lim(x->∞) 1/x = 0

Could I ask how you got to here? I mean, it's clearly not impossible... we live in our universe. The possibility of it existing is one hundred percent, since... it does exist.

I worded some stuff badly. Our universe has a cause and effect law, but the statistics on individual effect on causes show that effects should be chaotic.

The universe shouldn't make sense. We should have bunnies poofing into existence all over the place while gravity sporadically turns on and off. Instead, we have order. Therefore, I argue design.

This is a pretty big leap of logic too. Given how much of the universe is exploding, or collapsing in on itself, or is just plain uninhabitable, it's hard to really argue for order.

Exploding, collapsing, and being uninhabitable is all orderly. The equations fit, there are legitimate causes and effects. It's not random, but there is always the law of conservation of mass/energy going on. I'm talking about rolling an infinite sided die for every reaction to find its result.

Besides, getting there requires that we disengage ourselves from what we do know about the universe and going on your flight of fancy, and we're by no means required to do so; you can posit that a universe might exist where effect is independent from cause, where things happen spontaneously for no reason, but we don't live in that universe, nor do we have any reason to believe that's even possible. You're asking us to accept a premise that's not evident.

Yes. It's called a thought experiment. It is intentional. You are not required to do so, but it is simply restricting your knowledge. Schrödinger's Cat and the Chinese Box are the most famous ones.

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"Opposed to the infinite possibility for chaos, there is only one possibility for an ordered cause and effect equation."

You don't know that there is only one possibility.
All you know is that there is at least one possibility.

See "thought experiment".

[catfish]

It's logically impossible to "roll" an infinite-sided die, isn't it???
.