On Non-belief

[John V]

The world could have done quite nicely without that thought.

[FallentoReason]

It's 2 in the morning here and I could easily think of at least 5 better ad homs than that.

Thanks for today's discussion. Hopefully tomorrow you can reconcile the mess your personal god is.

G'nite.

[John V]

Thanks for today's discussion. Hopefully tomorrow you can reconcile the mess your personal god is.

You don't know if my personal god is a mess or not. All you know is crap you pick up from other clueless critics.

[FallentoReason]

Thanks for today's discussion. Hopefully tomorrow you can reconcile the mess your personal god is.

You don't know if my personal god is a mess or not. All you know is crap you pick up from other clueless critics.

Enlighten me. Refute the argument.

[John V]

Already did, unless you're referring to that incoherent 0 to 1 thing.

[FallentoReason]

Already did, unless you're referring to that incoherent 0 to 1 thing.

So I've given propositions p,q,r therefore s and all you can do is assert ~s i.e. "it's incoherent"?

This is where the discussion ends. I don't know what your motives are on this forum, but I'm continually after truth and as far as I can see, the argument is sound and therefore reflects reality. You clearly have no intention to properly refute it, which is fine, because it doesn't affect me. Rather, it just shows you're living in denial.

[Tex]

1) If God exists, he desires for us to know x is true, where x is the set of propositions we need to believe in so that we can be saved.
2) If God exists, he has the power to make us know x is true.
3) If God exists, and given (1) & (2), we should know x is true.
4) We do not know x is true.
C) Given (3) & (4), God does not exist.

This is really good for most Christian groups, but knowledge does not lead to salvation. That heresy is called "gnosticism" and was the merge of Platonic philosophy and Christianity.

Chad falls for most of it =p

However, non-gnostic Christians do not believe that salvation comes from knowledge. In fact, the bible says that the demons know God exists, but they are obviously not good.

[FallentoReason]

1) If God exists, he desires for us to know x is true, where x is the set of propositions we need to believe in so that we can be saved.
2) If God exists, he has the power to make us know x is true.
3) If God exists, and given (1) & (2), we should know x is true.
4) We do not know x is true.
C) Given (3) & (4), God does not exist.

This is really good for most Christian groups, but knowledge does not lead to salvation. That heresy is called "gnosticism" and was the merge of Platonic philosophy and Christianity.

Chad falls for most of it =p

However, non-gnostic Christians do not believe that salvation comes from knowledge. In fact, the bible says that the demons know God exists, but they are obviously not good.

There's a subtlety that you're not picking up on. If God is 'omniscious' (has the 3 omnis as attributes) then he is capable of making us know beyond doubt that the Bible is true. What we do about this knowledge is a whole different story, as you rightly pointed out how the Bible says demons know God exists but they still rebel.

[Neo-Scholastic]

...I don't really know where to begin. There's presupposition on top of presupposition on this baby!

Pretty much. Maybe we will have opportunity to discuss it on a more appropriate thread.

[Tex]

There's a subtlety that you're not picking up on. If God is 'omniscious' (has the 3 omnis as attributes) then he is capable of making us know beyond doubt that the Bible is true. What we do about this knowledge is a whole different story, as you rightly pointed out how the Bible says demons know God exists but they still rebel.

God could give us total knowledge that the bible is true, and obviously he is not. My first guess would be because the bible isn't necessary for belief. Even if Moses wrote the Pentateuch (earliest), that was around 1400 BC. People before him believed and non-Jews believed. The necessary knowledge for salvation is written in the bible, but what is written is also evident outside of the bible.