On Non-belief

[Ryantology]

Hey GC, you mind telling us all why your god is so hooked on people believing in him before they have a good reason to? Why's he being so bratty?

He desires all to be saved, he's already given everyone a reason and it's to bad you do not care to be loved.

He wants to save me, from a doom he himself is responsible for concocting, but won't unless I enslave myself to him entirely? What petty and juvenile horse shit. If he doesn't save a single soul, for any reason, it is ONLY because God wants to see a motherfucker burn for the pleasure such a spectacle affords him. There is literally no other way to explain it.

Nobody places limits on an omnipotent god like those who worship it.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Why so bitter all of a sudden? I'm starting to get concerned. Seriously, Ryan all the hostile profanity cannot be good for you.

[Godscreated]

The story of Abraham and Isaac is the fore telling of Christ's sacrifice for mankind. Isaac like Christ carried on his back that which he was to be sacrificed on. Abraham like God was going watch his son die. There is a difference here also, Isaac was going to be a sacrifice to God, Christ on the other hand was a sacrifice for man. Enter the ram, this was a sacrifice to God for Isaac, a beautiful picture of a future event that was for all of man. Isaac life was restored because Abraham was going to sacrifice him, God the Father did this by stopping Abraham, just as the Father restored Christ.

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He desires all to be saved, he's already given everyone a reason and it's to bad you do not care to be loved.

He wants to save me, from a doom he himself is responsible for concocting, but won't unless I enslave myself to him entirely? What petty and juvenile horse shit. If he doesn't save a single soul, for any reason, it is ONLY because God wants to see a motherfucker burn for the pleasure such a spectacle affords him. There is literally no other way to explain it.

Nobody places limits on an omnipotent god like those who worship it.

God placed restraints upon Himself, if He had not we all would be going to hell, God is restrained by His love, you do not have to believe this or accept it, and you certainly can not change it. Death will answer all questions.

[FallentoReason]

Yes, agreed hence why God is required to make the claims of Christianity true beyond doubt so that everyone has a chance at eternal life by then putting trust in this truth.

I don't think removing any possibility for doubt is required of God. In fact, I think it's required he allow the possibility. The greater the possibility to doubt, the greater the free will. Those who investigate generally (but not always) find the evidence, but some of this evidence must be studied and contemplated before understood. All of this is an exercise of the will.

The greater the doubt, the more souls that roast in hell not by their own doing, but by God's shyness to reveal himself.

If we were simply given knowledge beyond the shadow of a doubt, free will would not be very important. It would allow us to eat beef over chicken, but that's about it. Instead, because of the doubt, those that do not want to receive knowledge don't by their own free choice. Those that want the knowledge are free to obtain it by their own workings.

The greater the doubt, the more souls that roast in hell not by their own doing, but by God's shyness to reveal himself.

Finally, I don't even know if the knowledge beyond a doubt would help so many people. I can't reasonably say all, but most people would still want to do what they want, make their own way, and basically dismiss the knowledge they have as unimportant.

Then so be it. At least everyone had an equal chance at eternity.

The greater the doubt, the more souls that roast in hell not by their own doing, but by God's shyness to reveal himself.

To note again, to for you but mainly to other readers, no knowledge saves. Even Native Americans have a chance for salvation.

You keep bringing up this strawman. I've never said that the knowledge itself saves. It simply gives everyone an equal chance at eternity.

The greater the doubt, the more souls that roast in hell not by their own doing, but by God's shyness to reveal himself.

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The Mormons will tell you that Jesus flew over here after he rose and died, but that is not my reasoning (nor any sane person). I believe God is partially known in an indirect manner naturally. The "transcendentals" are Good, True, Beauty, Order, and Being. These are metaphysically complex, but a person, without even having the concept of "god" might not be able to develop a complex metaphysics from these transcendentals but use them all the same.

Little At'eed and Ashkii were running around one day and come across a wounded man from another tribe, barely conscious. Both of them hide bushes as not to be seen. A few minutes pass and Ethete, a girl from a third other tribe which both At'eed and Ashkii hate, comes along the same path. Ethete doesn't run at the sight of the unknown wounded man, but instead she runs over and begins tending to his needs. The injuries are doctored and the woman helps the man back to the nearest village. Ashkii thinks that Ethete was stupid in helping. She has wasted time and energy on someone she doesn't even know, not to mention the potential danger she put herself in. At'eed thinks the opposite; Ethete was right to help and her actions may have saved a man's life.

Ethete helping the man is part of the Good. She is participating in something Godly, even though she does not know it. Indirectly, she is worshiping God. Ashkii doesn't think that what she was doing is smart, and although he saw the scenario, he puts himself in front of the needs of other. He has witness Good and finds it repulsive. At'eed has witnessed the good and, although she did not participate, she agrees with it. This is not worship, but this is a disposition toward God.

Of those that adhere to this strange metaphysics, there are 2 opinions. The first is that only Ethete can be saved since she is the only one who acts upon her dispositions. This is not my opinion. My opinion is that Both Ethete and At'eed can be saved because both have the inward disposition toward God. However, I will say that At'eed needs to begin acting on this disposition and not quell it, because quelling it may lead her away from her current path.

You can actually use that same scenario I gave for all 5 of those transcendentals: Truth is that the person had dire needs met. Beauty is the act of helping someone who has done nothing to deserve it and most likely will not get anything for it. Order is the happenstance that this girl ran along when the guy needed her. Being is simply that things "are".

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No idea where you're getting this pseudo-theology or why it should even be considered. For all you know, these people were doing these deeds for Mountain God or whatever they might believe.

[Ryantology]

Why so bitter all of a sudden? I'm starting to get concerned. Seriously, Ryan all the hostile profanity cannot be good for you.

Hostile profanity is my bread and butter, but I appreciate the concern. I merely strive, on occasion, to live up to my user title.

[FallentoReason]

So it is 'your belief' (by differing to this guys logic) That X is needed for salvation? If so does that make Jesus a Liar? He seems to think there wasn't a 'set of propostition needed for salvation.' He taught the oppsite, that we only needed that faith of a mustard seed.

So we have our first candidate for the set x; we need to believe that Jesus was the Son of God. See, this isn't too hard Drich!

2) If God exists, he has the power to make us know x is true.

And He does to all of those who act on their faith.

No comment here.. let's see where you go with this..

3) If God exists, and given (1) & (2), we should know x is true.

If X Can simply be the absolute knoweledge of God. Then God can let us know that X is true.

Which he hasn't. A Tibetan monk raised that way as a kid will be engulfed in flames for all eternity for something he didn't do nor something he could have avoided thanks to your god's faulty divine plan.

4) We do not know x is true.

If you do not know it is because you have not asked, sought, or knocked as outlined in Luke 11.

Delusion 11 is the last thing you should be bringing up. Clearly you haven't understood the problem of non-belief. The Tibetan monk won't ever come across Delusion 11, nor will an Eskimo, or exotic tribes hidden in rain forests. All these will burn to a crisp for something they were completely unaware of.

C) Given (3) & (4), God does not exist.

..And If 'X' is a known quanity then can it also be said God does exist?

Your 'visit' to hell should be able to answer this about if x is known.

rebellion is not the objection to free will here. When people have a true heart for God they will seek him out no matter the obstacial, when they do not then then nothing that can be provided in the way of proof or convincing will make them give themselves over to God. Christ speaks of this when He addresses the Luke warm believers. These people know of God without reservation or doubt, they simply do not give themselves to God, as God asks us to do.(Which is rebellion enough to sentence them to Hell) Which is why Christ identifies them as non believers. There will be no greater torment than being in Hell not not understand why you are there. The current seperation God has placed between non believers and believers is for the benfit of those non-believers who are honest enough with themselves to claim that title.

Luke warm believers are on the fence for a reason; the evidence/reasoning for the Bible to be true is inconclusive. Divine Plan Epic Fail.

Without this clear seperation the vast majority of those in Hell would have gone through the motions of Christianity and may not fully understand why they are there.

Get your head out of your butt. You point to someone who was lucky enough to bump into the "truth" of the cosmos because they were born in the Western world and then they ruined it for themselves? Umm... Tibetan monk? Eskimos? Exotic tribes unexposed to the outside world? Australian Aboriginals isolated from us for around 40 000 years?

Imagine their reactions Drich.

mt7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Seriously, get your head out of your butt. You never seize to sicken me in one way or another..

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@Drich

You know what.. it's funny how you decided to approach your rebuttal. You were making it seem like the entire world is back in the 1st century C.E. and we're all aware of the local news about some apocalyptic preacher whose 'the anointed' running around towns. It's like we're unaware that there are vast seas that, if we cross, will lead to unexplored lands and ears that are yet to hear our Gospel. It's as if.. the justice that we believe our God exercises covers all, for all have heard the Gospel of salvation.

Oh wait. Those were the exact conditions the NT was written in. Is it the work of fallible man, or omniscient Divinity? I wonder...

[fr0d0]

Abraham and Isaac, hmmm...tough puzzle and probably the most perplexing and disturbing one of all. What strikes me about it is this. Child sacrifice was a practice found in Canaan. Abraham would not have been surprised that a typical god would make such a request. God's bait and switch seems to me like a way to 1) test Abraham's obedience, while at the same time 2) setting worship in a different direction and 3) revealing to Abraham the difference between the Lord and the gods of other nations. Those are just my thoughts...not terribly profound given the subject.

Isn't there also... Abraham knew God to be just and good. If God commanded it then Abraham will have understood that this act would be justified. His was the ultimate self sacrifice and a recognition of sovereignty.

[FallentoReason]

...Abraham knew God to be just and good...

You're throwing around those two words in a thread about non-believers roasting in hell for something they didn't do or could avoid?

Oh, the irony!

[Godscreated]

...Abraham knew God to be just and good...

You're throwing around those two words in a thread about non-believers roasting in hell for something they didn't do or could avoid?

Oh, the irony!

What exactly did you not do and what exactly could you not avoid and why?

[FallentoReason]

You're throwing around those two words in a thread about non-believers roasting in hell for something they didn't do or could avoid?

Oh, the irony!

What exactly did you not do and what exactly could you not avoid and why?

Someone unaware that Christianity's claims are true are unable to put trust in these claims. Consequently, they can't avoid hellfire since nothing in their environment lead them to the knowledge that the claims of Christianity are true.

The problem of non-belief.