Who needs the medressahs when you have the internet

[Dragonetti]

Silent majority?

:-) never spoke to a Muslim then...

You'd live it if these guys were the fringe of some fifth of the planet that wants to take over America.

But it's Americanthat's been dominating the third world now since the sixties at least....

It's America who have tanks and bombs and rapists taking over other countries.

Al Qaeda is a blip next to that...

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Gangsters!

I am sorry, I have been most of these of the Islamic countries. Islamic people are not very friendly to anyone outside their own religious views.

Islamic men own everything as their own property. Women have been persecuted in this part of the world for a long time. I have seen the public beatings with tire irons. Also, in Islam it is not rape, since it is consider personal property. Al Qaeda and Taliban promote this stuff. Most of the religious leaders support it.

Now you have them indoctrinating young children to be suicide bombers. They are claiming nothing will happen to them when they blow themselves up. These are young impressionable children between the ages of eight to seventeen. They believe the religious leaders without a second thought.

I have not seen USA persuading young children to blow themselves up!

Now I will question every move and decision my country makes, but most Islamic people will not question their religious leaders or blame something else for the problems.

Do not get me started about farm animals.

[Dawud]

Really,

You misunderstand, but I'd understand if you come from Pakistan.

I wouldn't let your bad experiences of Pakistanis cloud your mind to the possibility that a Muslim could be different. Reading Western hating or denial that there are bad Muslims is understandable but try to take a balanced view of what Im writting. I understand that Pakistan is quite a backward place compared to my own country but surely you are not saying that a Muslim can't criticise the USA? Do you not have any criticisms yourself? Do you really think that the US is justified in its drone attacks on Pakistan? Is it you instead who claims the US is blame free and not guilty of any wrong doing?

I don't justify the al-Qaida attacks in the West (those attacks on communist Russia by al-Qaida let us remember were CIA and US army backed - so surely you must either support Al-Qaida here or criticise the US for doing so). I live a fairly honest and respectable life and don't go around 'blaming the West' any more than the next Westerner who exercises this democratic right. I love the West far more than I love Pakistan and Im not engaged in this silly mindset that you assume. Even if Im the only Muslim alive who doesn't support terrorism and blame the West for all the evil in the world - can you not accept the possibility Free thinker? Has your ore-judgment if all Muslims led you that far?

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Surely even if you, like the very scared guy above, think that a fifth of the planet are terrorism loving Western hating morally bankrupt rapists - you would still not want incidents like Boston to justify illegal wars?

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*has your pre-judgment of Muslims...

[Free Thinker]

Dawud - I'd love to know which progressive Muslim country you come from. And we'll take the rest of this discussion from there.

[Dawud]

Scotland

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Do you support illegal wars more or less now?

[Free Thinker]

I don't know how long you've spent outside of the Muslim world because if it has been more than 5-10 years, then you're already too far removed from the reality of the messages and deep rooted issues that have caused the situation to become what it has.

Criticizing the west for their foreign policy is one thing (and in some cases appropriate), but using it as the sole excuse for violence perpetrated by Islamists is another. This would hold true if Islam didn't perpetrate violence before the western world got involved, but countries like Pakistan, Saudia, Iraq and Iran have had religious extremism as well as bouts of extreme violence perpetrated against people of their own countries for decades before the west ever even got involved.

You also have to keep in mind that the Western war is against people who commit acts of terror and not Islam directly. It's just that pretty much most acts of terror (in recent times anyways) have been largely perpetrated by people in the name of Islam that causes this paradox and belief against Muslims and Muslim sympathizers that the war is really against Islam - when it has been stated countless times that it isn't. I agree that this does breed some generalized hatred and paranoia towards all Muslims which is also wrong - but is also continuously fought against as well. I've seen plenty of positive messages from the west decrying discrimination against the peaceful Muslims as well to know that not all Muslims are discriminated against, nor are being vilified by the world. If that had been the case, people with your religious background wouldn't even be allowed in western countries. So the tolerance and acceptance that not all Muslims are violent is there.

However, at the same time, it is also the responsibility of Muslims to acknowledge that Islam itself contains messages of violence which are used to justify violence. Do we trace all acts of violence to western foreign policy however? No. That's where you and other Muslims are wrong.

What about sectarian violence between Shias and Sunnis that's prevalent everywhere where Sunnis or Shias happen to have majority? Is the West responsible for that as well? Or is that something that's exclusively perpetrated because of extreme interpretations of Quranic injunctions preached by fundamentalist/literalist Mullahs. The core justification for violence is there in many verses:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/...olence.htm

If the religion contains messages and verses that justify violence, then violence will always be a part of that religion and people will continue to use those messages as justification for their acts. Wrongfully so.

[Dawud]

I'd suggest you get to know the religion a bit better - this would help you get a more realistic view of why it doesn't necessitate violence. That is if you are seeking with positive intention to help Muslims.

Out of interest, do you think that violence is something that we must avoid at all costs?

[Free Thinker]

I'd suggest you get to know the religion a bit better - this would help you get a more realistic view of why it doesn't necessitate violence. That is if you are seeking with positive intention to help Muslims.

Out of interest, do you think that violence is something that we must avoid at all costs?

Did you read the verses I posted?

I think that all violence merely breeds more violence.

Secondly, as for the topic at hand - calls for violence against pagans, and people of different faiths (which are there in black and white in the Quran) is just plain immoral.

Do you think that the Quran giving permission to kill pagans is moral?

[Dawud]

That is not Islam - to just take the scripture and make up what you feel it means. You might choose to make up this version of Islam to criticise but it would be dishonest to the generations of academics (both Muslim and non-Muslim) to suggest that this is a Muslim fatwa front the text.
In philosophy it is a more philosophically sound procedure to portray an argument in the best light in order to evaluate it. I'd suggest you do the same with Islam if you seek to convince a Muslim. Islam has a clear legal system (also allowing for variance as long as due process is kept) and to say that am not following Islam or the Quran if I don't kill pagans just won't cut the mustard - especially when these verses have such well known contexts and circumstances that are well known to Muslims.

So many criticisms of Islam fail when they portray Islam as just reading the Quran and doing what you think - by and large this is what happens with evangelical biblical Christianity so I understand people's tendency to impose this familiar process on Islam. But ultimately it is like a misled person criticsing an everyday atheist by using arguments against Communism - I hope you see.

I'd say that embarking on a journey to learn together would be more productive process.

(Someone might raise figure after figure to suggest that the USA is the most violent and crime ridden country on earth and even convince an American of this - but that American won't necessarily denounce the American dream and what's more is that they don't have to because the system or American ideal is not necessarily the problem!

I hope you see why Id suggest a more positive tact - we are after all both humans looking for a better tomorrow (I presume)

This is why Id suggest it would help your endeavour (helping Muslims see the truth about Islam) and mine (of helping develop a more nuanced and realistic knowledge of Islam) would be helped by criticism of a form of Islam more familiar to a Muslim as myself or criticism of Islam from a creditable authoritative source.

Peace!

[The Grand Nudger]

The True Muslim™ defense, coming from you...is dripping with irony. I appreciate it. Your interpretation of a passage may differ from there's, but no one gives a shit because neither of you can establish the accuracy of the interpretation (or the veracity of the notion that either of you knows what any god desires).

Meanwhile durka durka.