Rules for the R'lyeh Forum

[Rayaan]

As regards the R'lyeh forum, the subheading states: "A sunken forum where people may continue heated, controversial threads, or start new ones in a relaxed rule atmosphere." I would like to respectfully suggest that you tighten up the rules for this particular forum, so that people like catfish are prohibited from flaming and trolling in extremely sensitive topics of discussion (such as serious health conditions, for example). Catfish acted extremely inappropriately and ultimately got away with murder in the "Mental disorders and supposed "crybabyism" thread. In this instance, it appears as though the rules were not just relaxed, but rather completely nonexistent. I hope it does not happen again.

Flaming and trolling are already prohibited in the R'lyeh.

As for catfish, there wasn't a strong agreement between the staff on whether or not he was actually flaming or trolling in that thread. A few of us voted against any action because we thought that his comments were more of a personal attack, which is allowed in R'lyeh.

And people who post in the R'lyeh usually know, or should know, what they are getting themselves into. There is a description in that forum for a reason.

[Jackalope]

Flaming and trolling are already prohibited in the R'lyeh.

I think it's important to note what differentiates "personal attacks" (allowed in R'lyeh) and "flaming" (which is not). Personally, if a post consists solely of a personal attack with no argument - it's flaming, otherwise it's not necessarily.

As for catfish, there wasn't a strong agreement between the staff on whether or not he was actually flaming or trolling in that thread. A few of us voted against any action because we thought that his comments were more of a personal attack, which is allowed in R'lyeh.

Furthermore, there were some of us who felt that the thread should have been split to a forum that did not have R'lyeh's protection from the personal attack rule. Consider this: anyone who posts in a R'lyeh thread is fair game. Is someone who posted to Off Topic, and later had his post split to R'lyeh fair game when they were not involved in the activity that led to the split? I think they should not be. If members want to voluntarily create threads in R'lyeh, that's fine.

I think that R'lyeh is an appropriate place to split a thread when all involved are mutual combatants. That wasn't the case here. I believe that we waited too long to split the thread, and that we split it to the wrong place. For my part in that, I apologize.

And people who post in the R'lyeh usually know, or should know, what they are getting themselves into. There is a description in that forum for a reason.

I wholeheartedly agree, with the caveats noted above.

[Rayaan]

I think it's important to note what differentiates "personal attacks" (allowed in R'lyeh) and "flaming" (which is not).

Certainly ... although the line between "personal attacks" and "flaming" might be a little blurry.

That's why we make votes, hehe.

Personally, if a post consists solely of a personal attack with no argument - it's flaming, otherwise it's not necessarily.

Well, then, I've seen many posts that only have a personal attack with no argument; posts that simply include a statement such as "Asshole," "Fuck you "Bitch," "Idiot," "Fuck off," "Kill yourself," "Go fuck yourself," "You are a disgusting person," or something along those lines (i.e. just a personal attack with no arguments at all), but oftentimes we didn't do anything to the author of those posts.

I think that a lot more people would have been banned by now if that is what we accepted as an example of flaming, as you described above.

Furthermore, there were some of us who felt that the thread should have been split to a forum that did not have R'lyeh's protection from the personal attack rule.

That was much later, though, right?

Consider this: anyone who posts in a R'lyeh thread is fair game. Is someone who posted to Off Topic, and later had his post split to R'lyeh fair game when they were not involved in the activity that led to the split? I think they should not be. If members want to voluntarily create threads in R'lyeh, that's fine.

Fair game or not, the important thing is that the same rules should apply for every member/participant in the R'lyeh, whether someone voluntarily created the threads in the R'lyeh or we moved it there.

Just because we split and moved a post to the R'lyeh doesn't mean that original poster is not "fair game" anymore, because the rules haven't changed where we moved it to.

I think that R'lyeh is an appropriate place to split a thread when all involved are mutual combatants. That wasn't the case here.

Even if that was not the case, it doesn't matter because the R'lyeh is basically a place for heated and/or controversial threads as written in the description of that forum. Most of the threads in R'lyeh, however, were not even intended to start heated arguments with mutual combatants, which is alright, so it's not necessary that everyone posting in that area have to be mutual combatants.

Plus, there will almost always going to be at least some members who desire to have a non-offensive/non-combative and a rational discussion, so I think it would be very unlikely for you to come across even a single thread that meets your criteria for splitting to R'lyeh that "ALL involved are mutual combatants."

I believe that we waited too long to split the thread, and that we split it to the wrong place. For my part in that, I apologize.

I don't accept your apology ... because I don't think that any of that was a mistake in the first place.

[Jackalope]

Personally, if a post consists solely of a personal attack with no argument - it's flaming, otherwise it's not necessarily.

Well, then, I've seen many posts that only have a personal attack with no argument; posts that simply include a statement such as "Asshole," "Fuck you "Bitch," "Idiot," "Fuck off," "Kill yourself," "Go fuck yourself," "You are a disgusting person," or something along those lines (i.e. just a personal attack with no arguments at all), but oftentimes we didn't do anything to the author of those posts.

I think that a lot more people would have been banned by now if that is what we accepted as an example of flaming, as you described above.

Well... under the narrow definition of "personal attack", I'd have to say that the above don't exactly qualify. But, as you said, that's why we vote. :p

Furthermore, there were some of us who felt that the thread should have been split to a forum that did not have R'lyeh's protection from the personal attack rule.

That was much later, though, right?

Yes, of course. As I said to LastPoet after the thread was closed, much clarity comes with hindsight. At the time, the split was uncontroversial.

Consider this: anyone who posts in a R'lyeh thread is fair game. Is someone who posted to Off Topic, and later had his post split to R'lyeh fair game when they were not involved in the activity that led to the split? I think they should not be. If members want to voluntarily create threads in R'lyeh, that's fine.

Fair game or not, the important thing is that the same rules should apply for every member/participant in the R'lyeh, whether someone voluntarily created the threads in the R'lyeh or we moved it there.

Just because we split and moved a post to the R'lyeh doesn't mean that original poster is not "fair game" anymore, because the rules haven't changed where we moved it to.

Perhaps I didn't make my point clear - ultimately, I think splitting to R'lyeh should be done with caution. I would personally prefer to deal with incipient flame wars in-thread using other tools that we have and/or asking participants to create a thread in R'lyeh. I don't want to put someone in the position of being fair game for personal attacks by virtue of a post made outside of R'lyeh that was moved there, if they were not participating in the attacks. We don't allow members to snipe from R'lyeh at members who aren't posting there, nor should people who didn't post to a thread when it was *in* R'lyeh be subjected to attacks by virtue of (non-attack) posts being moved there.

What I'm saying, is that if we're going to split to R'lyeh, we ought to seek to reduce the collateral damage.

Then again, that's why we vote.

[Violet]

It was my error to split that thread from the HoS into R'lyeh, given the nature of the subject. Like CD said, hindsight is 20/20. Thread closed now, best thing I could've done to ameliorate my error.

Nonsense, people know going into a R'lyeh thread what to expect. If they're getting worked up... they always have the option to leave.

Edit: that's to say: so someone is taking a shot at you... so fucking what? If you don't consider their shot worth a defense from you, you're under no obligation to respond to them

I mean, say you're walking down the street, and some random heckler pulls a piles of insults out and throws them at you. You have options, you can smile and make a game of it, you can get angry and retaliate, you can punch them in the face (say, mod action)... and you can walk away.

[Whateverist]

I have to admit I don't see much difference between flaming and personal attacks. Also, is it still a personal attack if the person you call an asshole is in fact a flaming asshole? I find myself .. expressing myself .. more lately when people are offensive. Like that MoFo666 with his sexist comments on a recent thread. Is there ever a case when providing unasked for character analysis is actually considered a public service? Just wondering.

[Jackalope]

I have to admit I don't see much difference between flaming and personal attacks. Also, is it still a personal attack if the person you call an asshole is in fact a flaming asshole? I find myself .. expressing myself .. more lately when people are offensive. Like that MoFo666 with his sexist comments on a recent thread. Is there ever a case when providing unasked for character analysis is actually considered a public service? Just wondering.

It's admittedly pretty subjective - which is one reason why I think requiring a quorum before action is taken is a positive thing. In my book, calling a flaming asshole an asshole is non-actionable - it ain't a personal attack until it gets, well, personal. I'd give a real historical example were it appropriate, but I'm not comfortable that it is.

I'll use myself as an an example instead. I happen to have a physical disability. Were a member to leverage that fact in an insulting / disparaging / hurtful manner, it might be actionable, for example. Calling me an asshole? Probably not - particularly if I am, in fact, being an asshole (pro-tip: I am).

Each individual staff member has his/her own opinion on where that line lies, of course.

More or less clear now?

[LastPoet]

Personally, insults or personal attacks do not affect me, although I react when I perceive are personally attacked (everyone doesn't necessarily have the same philosophy that I do, that personal attacks only ashame/dishonor those that resort to them). Of course, in the purpose of maintaining the forum PH level acceptable, we need to act upon such things to avoid this place to turn into a real loonie bin. The way I see it, simple insults like motherfucker, idiot, asswipe, etc, etc... aren't really actionable (If it isn't the only thing in a given members posts and/or repeated ad nauseum), but using some personal information about the target in order to attack him/her is actionable.

[Tiberius]

I agree with the above.

Personal Attack - Attacking a member on a personal level (i.e. using personal information as the basis for an attack, or as part of the attack).

Flaming - Making a series of posts that are more about attacking members than actually adding content. The attacks don't have to be personal (i.e. calling someone an asshole several times), but they can be.

Examples:

Personal Attack - "You're dirty fucking Jew and should be put down."

Flaming - "Fuck you, you complete fucking dick. Piss off and leave me alone." (Ad nauseam)