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The Separation of Church and State
#91
RE: The Separation of Church and State
(November 12, 2009 at 3:30 pm)Saerules Wrote: Oh my magnificent Dotard... Did you truly create this part of the universe?

Joke

But seriously, have you *NOT* noticed the appalling lack of muslims, jews, atheists, agnostics, etc. in our government? Mirror that with 'separation of church and state', and note just how many of them are religious christians. It's ridiculous.

I don't get the joke but that's ok.

Anyway, you are comparing apples and oranges. The "separation of church and state" does not have anything to do with the beliefs of those who make up the government, only with the laws that they can or cannot make.
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#92
RE: The Separation of Church and State
Leik the ones against abortion and homosexual marriage?
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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#93
RE: The Separation of Church and State
Wow, I am in the rare position of agreeing wholeheartedly with Rjh4!

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyN...10718.html

Quote:Eighty-three percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians. Most of the rest, 13 percent, have no religion. That leaves just 4 percent as adherents of all non-Christian religions combined — Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and a smattering of individual mentions.
Bolding mine

Our nation is predominantly Christian so it should come as no surprise that the majority of our elected officials would share that belief or at least pay it lip service to secure the Christian vote. The same goes for laws. It is actually a surprise to me that our body of law doesn't adhere to Christian morals even more than it already does.

The fact that there isn't a clear break between church and state is an artifact of democracy rather than by any design of our founding fathers.

Rhizo
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#94
RE: The Separation of Church and State
(November 12, 2009 at 4:45 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: It is actually a surprise to me that our body of law doesn't adhere to Christian morals even more than it already does.

My guess is that it is because most of the "Christian" politicians merely "pay it lip service to secure the Christian vote" (as you put it). Smile
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#95
RE: The Separation of Church and State
Until we stop pretending to separate church and state in our government: I am against the merest idea of having faith in ridiculous things in our government. A government needs to know what the hell is really going on... do you think it's being almost completely Christian helps it know what the fuck to do if missiles are laughed at us?

Let me guess... pray? That sort of person doesn't belong in positions of power... they are too weak to make the decisions they will need to make. Nor should they be able to make ridiculous decisions just because they 'heard a voice' or 'had a vision' or the like... I'm sorry, I had enough of that bullshittery with Bush.

Religion does not belong in politics... any more than it belongs in the government or in science or in schools. If anything... it should be a personal thing that we aren't too serious about. But religions organized to the scale of indoctrinating 83% of the nation... that is just morally wrong on so many levels... those 83% of brainwashed people have much less of a right to obtain an office than do the rationalists. /sigh, you can probably tell that I strongly disagree with a democratically based state... I think we need leaders who are as virtuous and capable of the job as it is conceivable they be... not the democratically elected new 'Pope of america' that could one day plague our future. The only thing saving us from that one is the separation of church and state. And ~80% of americans might very well want to vote to repeal that law.

That is a problem, in my opinion. o.o
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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#96
RE: The Separation of Church and State
That is, of course, part of it but I would think that another motivating force would be due to an adherance to the ideology put forth by our fore-fathers. What I mean is that even a true Christian might understand the need for the seperation of church and state and follow that ideal while creating policy.

The golden rule is a good one.

So, if the majority of the country switched to a religion that believed that a eugenics program should be instituted to perfect the human genome so that our bodies would be perfect hosts for symbiotes from the planet zorch, our elected officials would understand that it would be unethical to enact a law that would require the citizenry to abort children that do not meet the state mandated criteria for acceptable DNA. The real freedom would come from maintaining the legal status of abortion so that people of this religion would have the freedom to practice their kooky religion while not affecting the rest of us.

Sae,

I missed your post in the cross so I would just like to say that I agree with you that church and state should be seperate. I even think that Rjh4 believes this as well. Please correct me if I am wrong Rjh4.

Rhizo
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#97
RE: The Separation of Church and State
I understand what you mean by this... but it is so easily true that they end up like Bush.

Didn't we have a thread on the Golden Rule a while ago? I thought it had been concluded that people should get what they deserve... not what we would have them give us.

But can they practice their religion without affecting us? Look at christians. If religion was some harmless thing that nobody cared about really: THEN it would be 'okay?'. But it is not so harmless... as I surely shouldn't have to prove to a fellow atheist? Wink

Is it unethical to defeat diseases and maintain the human population at a level we can support? I don't see why you are so against eugenics Rhizo... but it seems like their only 'bad rep' comes from the Nazi perversion of the ideals behind eugenics... that an entirely voluntary system based off of recommendation.
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
Reply
#98
RE: The Separation of Church and State
(November 12, 2009 at 5:16 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: I even think that Rjh4 believes this as well. Please correct me if I am wrong Rjh4.

Rhizo

You are correct, I do think it is a good thing. My whole point in my first post in this thread was that I think Minimalist had a wrong view of what this really is. And I now think Sae does too.
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#99
RE: The Separation of Church and State
Then what was 'really' your point??? Smile
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
Reply
RE: The Separation of Church and State
(November 12, 2009 at 5:23 pm)Saerules Wrote: But can they practice their religion without affecting us? Look at christians. If religion was some harmless thing that nobody cared about really: THEN it would be 'okay?'. But it is not so harmless... as I surely shouldn't have to prove to a fellow atheist? Wink

I am quite interested in finding out what specifically you mean by this. I cannot think of anything I do as a practicing Christian that affects anyone else (outside my family of course). I am not trying to argue that for some Christians this doesn't occur, I just would like to know in what ways this actually does occur.

Relative to the eugenics thing...I must say that your view, Sae, is scarry to my.
(November 12, 2009 at 5:33 pm)Saerules Wrote: Then what was 'really' your point??? Smile

Huh?
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