Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: December 1, 2024, 3:16 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Why god cannot heal amputees? Well... he did, once.
#1
Why god cannot heal amputees? Well... he did, once.
¿Why God doesn't heal amputees? Well, it suposedly did once. Yet, for some strange reason, not so many people have heard of it. The suposed event have some particularities. For instance, the original record of the eyewitness exist, and there is also a notary certification among a book righten 1-2 years after by an eyewitness and the declaration of the 3 doctors that cutted the leg of this poor man. one even interacted with this man for almost 2 years.

Wikipedia puts the event like this (formal name of the event is "Miracle of Calanda". It took place in Spain. I sumed it up, but you can check the wikipedia page if you wish so):

Quote:At the end of July 1637 Miguel Juan Pellicer, a 20 year old man in Aragon was working on his uncle's farm. While steering a cart by riding one of the mules that was pulling it, Miguel fell off. The cartwheel passed over his right leg, breaking the tibia. He received initial treatment at Castellón, then was admitted to the hospital of Valencia, where he stayed for five days. He then decided to leave for Zaragoza in order to receive treatment in the hospital to whom he had great devotion. The 300 kilometre journey took him some 50 days
On his arrival, the doctors observed that the leg was in an advanced state of gangrene, leaving no other choice but to amputate it. In mid-October two master surgeons, Juan de Estanga and Diego Millaruelo, carried out the operation. The leg was cut "four fingers below the knee." The leg was then buried, as was customary at the time, in a special part of the hospital's cemetery.

Miguel Juan Pellicer stayed in hospital for a few months, until in the spring of 1638 he was provided with a wooden leg and crutches and released from hospital. For the next two years, he made his living through begging. During this time he was certainly a familiar sight for a large number of the citizens of Zaragoza. He regularly returned to the hospital for checkups and treatment through Dr. Estanga.

Every evening he would ask the servants in the sanctuary for a bit of the oil that burnt in the lamp and use it as ointment to rub in the stub of his leg, with the conviction that he would so be able to draw the aid of the Virgin upon him. In the first months of 1640, now 23 years old, he decided to return to his parents at Calanda.

He arrived at March 11-14 aprox. Unable to help in working on the fields, he once again took up begging, going around the neighbouring villages on donkey's back. Many people at the time must have witnessed that his lower leg was missing.

At about ten o'clock in the evening of 29 March 1640, Pellicer laid himself to rest. Because his bed was occupied by a soldier of a garrison that stayed at Calanda over night, he went to sleep on a provisional bed in his parents' room. Between half past ten and eleven o'clock, his mother entered the room and saw two feet appearing from below the cloak that covered her son. Thinking that Miguel Juan and the soldier must have changed places, she called her husband to resolve the misunderstanding. But while removing the cloak, husband and wife, were dumbstruck, as they realized that this was indeed their own son! They shook him and shouted at him to wake him up. Some minutes passed until Miguel Juan woke up from a deep sleep. He told them that he had dreamt of being within the Sanctuary of Our Lady of the Pillar and rubbing his leg with the holy oil, as he had done so often. Soon all three agreed that the restoration of the leg was due to the intercession of the Virgin of the Pillar.

News of the event immediately spread through Calanda. The following morning the local judge, assisted by two surgeons, examined Pellicer and set up a report which he immediately sent to his superiors. On April 1, Palm Sunday, Don Marco Seguer, parish priest of Mazaleón, a village fifty kilometres away, went to the place of the event, accompanied by the royal notary Miguel Andréu, who set up a certificate to express the testimony, confirmed by oath, of ten persons.


On April 25 Pellicer and his parents went on a pilgrimage to Zaragoza to give thanks to Our Lady of the Pillar, and here too the young man was seen by a great number of people who had known him before with only one leg. Following a request from the city's authority, a formal inquiry was initiated in order to ascertain the veracity of the event. Legal proceedings, presided by the archbishop of the city began on June 5 and took about a year. All hearings were public and no voice of dissent was recorded. Twenty-four witnesses spoke out, selected as the most trustworthy from among the great number of people that knew Pellicer, both from Calanda and from Zaragoza ( yeah, also the doctor who cut the leg ).

On April 27 of 1641 the archbishop of Zaragoza pronounced a judgment, thereby officially declaring the authenticity of the miracle. At the end of the year Pellicer was also invited to the royal court at Madrid, where King Philip IV knelt down before him and kissed the leg. Recordings also show that the restored leg was the same one as that which had been amputated two and a half years before, for it could be reidentified through some bruises and scars that were there before the amputation. Also, the hole in the cemetery of the hospital of Zaragoza in which the leg had been buried was excavated and found empty.

In the appendix of his book, Vittorio Messori also reports the opinion of Landino Cugola, primary surgeon of the hospital of the University of Verona, a specialist in limb replantation. Cugola has carefully studied the testimonies given in the recordings of the proceedings at Zaragoza, which reveal that the leg, after it had only just been restored, was cold and hard with contracted toes and blue in colour. Hence, Pellicer was not yet able to put his weight on it and still had to move around on crutches. After a few days the leg regained in strength and the toes were stretched out again. Also, the leg was initially a few centimetres shorter due to the loss of bone tissue that was caused by the fracture, but within about three months it regained its original length. According to Cugola, all this is in perfect accordance with the normal development following the replantation of a leg, although the growth of tissue is usually supported by exerting a pull onto the limb. In Pellicer’s case this was not necessary.

(Stolen from wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Calanda ).

¿ What documents we have of this ?

Well we have:
1.- The certificate set up by the notary Andréu. The original document, which fortunately escaped destruction in the Spanish civil war, is on display in a glass case in the town hall of Zaragoza.

2.- The minutes of the proceedings at Saragozza. The original document, having been kept in the archives of Zaragoza chapter house, was handed over to a Benedictine monk, Father Lambert, in about 1930, who then took it to France. Unfortunately Lambert was killed in World War II and it is unknown what has become of the manuscript since. However, before it disappeared four printed editions had been published, the first of which in 1829. Two notaries certified that these corresponded exactly with original text.

3.- Two certified copies of the minutes of the proceedings, set up at the same day as the original. They were signed and sealed by the same notaries. One was kept in the archives of the town of Zaragoza, but burnt in 1808 during the Napoleonic wars. The other is still extant and is kept in the archives of the Cathedral of the Pillar.

4.- The report of Calanda’s local judge, set up on the morning immediately after the event. It has not survived to our time, but documentary traces confirm that there was such a report.

5.- A small booklet written by a Carmelite monk, commissioned by the chapter house of the Pillar, and published in 1641.

6.- Another book, published by a German doctor in 1642. The Jesuit father who gave the imprimatur added a declaration in which he affirmed that he personally knew Pellicer, first with one leg and then with two.

7.- The account of the audience of Miguel Juan Pellicer at the royal court of Madrid.

8.- Baptism document of Pellicer.

9.- The certificate of admitance of Pellicer to the Valencia Hospital ( the first one ).


For anyone interested in this issue, you can read all the eyewitness reports from here ( http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc...7;view=1up ) It's a digital copy from a University from Spain.


Now, for some reason I've only become aware of 1 objection to this aledged "miracle". It's from an entry on skeptoid and you can see it here: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4247

However, I do find his account mediocre, or at least, not fully honest. He claims as the primary refute this:

Quote:"Note that no evidence exists that his leg was ever amputated — or that he was even treated at all — at the hospital in Zaragoza other than his own word. He named three doctors there, but for some reason there is no record of their having been interviewed by either the delegation or the trial. The trial did find that no leg was buried where he said it was at the hospital, but this is exactly what we'd expect to find if it had never been amputated."

This is false. The document I put above in fact have the declaration of the three doctors. I have translated two of them in other times ( however, you can check in the link. There is a part were says "plain text". You click and you get the text righten and not scanned. Then you can use Google Translator) I can provide the third one if someone wish it, however.


Dr. Juan de Estanga declaration ( the declaration is righten in Old Spanish so it's a bit redundant and stuff. Page 43):

Quote:"... And what he can say about the named article ( 10 article ) is that he remember the Juan Pellicero named in the article, who he know well, and that he is the same that they brough him from the " Cuadra de Calenturas", as how it happens a lot, like some days before they brough a preist with "llagas" in the head. And what he can say about that article is that about two years or more, he moved to the " Cuadra de Cirugia", and he found a boy, that is the same that had been show today, and by that moment he didn't knew how he was named, and that he had a injurie in the leg, and he tried to cure it and although they aplied many cures they didn't work because the leg was really injuried.

He resolved to cut the leg, because in his opinion the named Juan Pellicero would had died per juramentum.
About the article 11 he said: That about two years and a half, more or less, after making the deliberations, and via his practicants and nurseys they cut the leg to Juan Pellicero, for fingers bellow the knee, that he believe and have as certain is the same leg that had been shown to him, and this is true per juramentum.

To the 13 article he claimed: that he continued with the cure of said leg for some month ( after cut ) until he was in the state to have some clothes as is used, and he claimed this to be true per juramentum.

To the 14 articule he claimed: that many days after in diferent ocasiones the said Juan Pellicero came to said Hospital for subsequent cures, and he took the protections of the leg, and that he ( Pellicero ) said to him that he put oil in the leg from the Virgin of del Pilar lamps..."

This one is from Diego Millaruelo, Master of surgeons ( page 50-52):

Quote:29 years, more or less, he had good memory, eyewitness from this present cause. presented, produced and swared, when asked about the content of the article 10 from said cedule, he claimed:
That he knows well the said Miguel Juan Pellicero, for what he is going to say down, and with this he say that about 2 years ago, more or less, that he was with the Licenciated Juan de Estanga, and that he was talking with him while moving to visit the sick persons from the "Cuadra de Cirugia", because he is responsible for the cure of the sick persons in there.
And he saw in a bed the said Miguel Juan Pellicero with a gangrenated leg, and that said Licenciated JUan de Estanga put many medicines in it, but it didn't work. Seeing this, the Licenciated Juan de Estanga decided to cut the leg because he didn't saw any other solution for Juan Pellicero.
He claim this per juramentum, because as it was said he was talking with the said Licenciated Juan de Estanga.

for the article 11 after beeing read he said: That after made the deliberation from above, they cut the leg. And he knows this because he was present when they were cutting it, and he helped with this, and he saw it cut, and he claims this to be true per juramentum.

To the article 12 from said cedule he said: That he knows and saw one of the Mancebos ( Platicantes ) in said "Cuadra" taking the leg to bury it. and that he heard that they put it in the graveyard, and he claims this to be true per juramentum.

After reading article 13 he said: That he knows well, and saw, that after they cutted the leg, said Juan de Estanga continued to cure the remains of the leg until it made a scar and he claims this to be true per juramentum.
( after he claims the articles 14,15,16 to be true and exactly like that per juramentum ).

For the article 27 he claimed: that about a month, more or less, he knew that Juan Pellicero was in the city, and he decided to visit him, and he saw he was the same, and as it was said, his leg had been cuted. But he saw the leg regrown, although he couldn't put well the foot, or move with free. and he saw Miguel Juan Pellicer with his fathers, and he claims this to be true per juramentum.

Now, from this strange "case" of a "miracle" I note 4 strange things:

1) Obviously, there is a claim of a leg regrowing!

2) The miracle didn't actually turned the way it was expected in those days. The fact was the leg regrown not fully formed but shorter, and Ill-like. In the documents, there is a whole "excuse" trying to deal with the issue of why God would regrow a leg in such a state given he is Perfect.

3) The leg development resembles that one of people with re-implants.

4) It had, aparently, the same scars and marks as the original leg.

5) The buried leg was searched, but it was gone.


Probably the whole deal is total bullshit ( can I use that word in the forum?), but anyway. It could very well be a rare story to tell with friend while being drunk Big Grin
Reply
#2
RE: Why god cannot heal amputees? Well... he did, once.
"At the end of July 1637"

Are you serious???????

I have read archive german texts from the renaissance and medieval Germany in which it is described how a child born from a white father and black mother had "dalmatian" skinpatterns.
Reply
#3
RE: Why god cannot heal amputees? Well... he did, once.
I'm sorry, but when I saw this was in 1637, I stopped reading.

And yes, you can say "bullshit" all you want. No one's fucking stopping you.Wink
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
Reply
#4
RE: Why god cannot heal amputees? Well... he did, once.
(June 8, 2013 at 3:44 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: "At the end of July 1637"

Are you serious???????

I have read archive german texts from the renaissance and medieval Germany in which it is described how a child born from a white father and black mother had "dalmatian" skinpatterns.

I just put it more as a "joke" for the other topic ( Why god cannot heal amputees?") Hence the names are similar. Just saying, there have been cases where people have claimed God did this. Not saying it did happened, although I must say in it's defense that is actually really good documented.
Reply
#5
RE: Why god cannot heal amputees? Well... he did, once.
Quote:Probably the whole deal is total bullshit ( can I use that word in the forum?)

In this instance it is almost a requirement.
Reply
#6
RE: Why god cannot heal amputees? Well... he did, once.
Just curious, though. ¿What do you think it actually happened?
Reply
#7
RE: Why god cannot heal amputees? Well... he did, once.
(June 8, 2013 at 3:52 pm)TheBigOhMan Wrote: Just curious, though. ¿What do you think it actually happened?

Dont know.

Maybe the begging was lucrative and the guy was a fraud?

Maybe he pulled it of to profit from claims of miricale healing (also fraud)?

Medieval documentation aswell as reneissance documentation isnt that good. So we will probably never know exactly what happened.
Reply
#8
RE: Why god cannot heal amputees? Well... he did, once.
[Image: th?id=H.4575189185333595&pid=1.7&w=220&h=167&c=7&rs=1]
Reply
#9
RE: Why god cannot heal amputees? Well... he did, once.
(June 8, 2013 at 3:52 pm)TheBigOhMan Wrote: Just curious, though. ¿What do you think it actually happened?

In 1637 the Wars of the Reformation were still raging throughout Europe. I'd say this represents a propagandistic hoax by the church.... the fuckers were certainly not above lying... trying to show that god was on their side.
Reply
#10
RE: Why god cannot heal amputees? Well... he did, once.
(June 8, 2013 at 3:56 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote:
(June 8, 2013 at 3:52 pm)TheBigOhMan Wrote: Just curious, though. ¿What do you think it actually happened?

Dont know.

Maybe the begging was lucrative and the guy was a fraud?

Maybe he pulled it of to profit from claims of miricale healing (also fraud)?

Medieval documentation aswell as reneissance documentation isnt that good. So we will probably never know exactly what happened.

Probably. Though I wonder why they pull the miracle fake with a blue and short leg and not a long and completely healed leg.FSM Grin

(June 8, 2013 at 3:59 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
(June 8, 2013 at 3:52 pm)TheBigOhMan Wrote: Just curious, though. ¿What do you think it actually happened?

In 1637 the Wars of the Reformation were still raging throughout Europe. I'd say this represents a propagandistic hoax by the church.... the fuckers were certainly not above lying... trying to show that god was on their side.

I certainly believe it's possible. Yet I find the solution must lie in a more elaborated plan that doesn't quite involve only the Church ( perhaps there was more than one interest involved ). The document actually have a 3 page long excuse as why the miracle doesn't actually look "holy" ( given the development of the leg ). I don't see why the Church would cast doubts in their own hoax.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Evolution cannot account for morality chiknsld 341 44871 January 1, 2023 at 10:06 pm
Last Post: sdelsolray
  Why did God give commandments to Jews? Fake Messiah 12 1317 August 11, 2022 at 10:10 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Why did God get rid of the Trilobites? Jehanne 41 4340 October 24, 2021 at 11:37 pm
Last Post: Ferrocyanide
  Why did God allow his words to be changed? Fake Messiah 53 6018 October 23, 2021 at 11:55 am
Last Post: Jehanne
  Am I right to assume, that theists cannot prove that I am not god? Vast Vision 116 38001 March 5, 2021 at 6:39 am
Last Post: arewethereyet
  Being cannot come from Non-being Otangelo 147 17699 January 7, 2020 at 7:08 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Why did my mom tell me that feelings are enough to have religion? Der/die AtheistIn 11 1741 April 2, 2019 at 7:10 pm
Last Post: Yonadav
  Why religious cannot agree. Mystic 46 9723 July 6, 2018 at 11:05 pm
Last Post: warmdecember
  So why did the hook nose "become a thing" in discriminatory appearance? Roberto 12 4092 January 23, 2018 at 5:52 am
Last Post: LadyForCamus
  Religion was once again showed down my throat Der/die AtheistIn 13 3213 October 1, 2017 at 7:07 am
Last Post: Succubus



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)