Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism

[Minimalist]

No one survived crucifixion,

Incorrect, again as is customary for you.

Josephus reports in his "Life" that:

I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered.

You can thank me for educating you later.

[Chas]

In other words, you believe that you have to save your own skin from hell you're told you deserve. It's the indisputably and absolutely self-centered impetus driving virtually every Christian on earth.

Not true. Good deeds are a response to faith. We do them, not just because God commanded us to or that God will reward them, but because we are grateful for what God has done. Doing charitable works helps us to grow in virtue. One cannot say one is kind unless one does kind acts. Same for patience, prudence, justice, etc. You really can't say you have faith in God and then not do what He commanded.

Yes, but I'm an atheist and do good deeds. No gods are required.

[Minimalist]

And there is no evidence that any gods exist!

[Ryantology]

Not true. Good deeds are a response to faith. We do them, not just because God commanded us to or that God will reward them, but because we are grateful for what God has done. Doing charitable works helps us to grow in virtue. One cannot say one is kind unless one does kind acts. Same for patience, prudence, justice, etc. You really can't say you have faith in God and then not do what He commanded.

Obviously not correct, as pointed out above, doing good is by no means a behavior exclusive to Christians.

Ultimately, you keep on God's good side to stay out of hell and live forever. That's the point. That's the enticement Jesus came up with to get more people on board. It's an appeal to the most base selfishness humans possess, and proof enough, for me, that the whole thing is a sham. If God was really interested in establishing meaningful relationships with people who wanted that connection only for its own sake, there would be no reward for saying yes and no punishment for saying no.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Not true. Good deeds are a response to faith. We do them, not just because God commanded us to or that God will reward them, but because we are grateful for what God has done.

As many have pointed out, atheists do good things, too. I don't do good things because I'm grateful, I do them because it helps others, I don't need another reason, and I'm not trying to sound noble here, because I'm sure plenty of you do the same, just explaining how it works in an atheist's world.

Doing charitable works helps us to grow in virtue. One cannot say one is kind unless one does kind acts. Same for patience, prudence, justice, etc. You really can't say you have faith in God and then not do what He commanded.

I don't believe in this sort of "growing in virtue" talk really. I find it unrealistic almost, to expect us to "grow" into some form of "perfect" human beings with great morals and a nice temper and blabla. i'm an impatient person, big deal, at least i'm nice enough not to tell others to change their personalities because it's not good enough for god.

[BettyG]

[quote='BettyG' pid='475801' dateline='1373511326']
What I dislike about atheism is that it requires one to reject reality.

Esquilax:
I have been posting about miracles, such as the Resurrection, that I do believe happened. None of the responses, such as "Jesus didn't really die. He never existed. The Roman soldiers were bribed, etc are unproved conjectures that go against 2000 years of history, so then you deny that one can know history.

Do you often see historical records espousing on all the things that weren't present at any given time? "The year is 03 AD, and there aren't any dragons. Nor are there leprechauns. End communication."

On the flipside, what we don't see, are any historical records that noted that Jesus did exist...

Yes, you can always rely on the credulous to refute the stories that are only aiding their cause. That's absolutely true.

You would need to provide evidence of miracles in history. From non-biased accounts, for which there can be no better explanation.

You seem to assume that reports of miracles from those who experienced them are too biased to tell the truth. Who could provide better evidence than eyewitnesses?
BTW, the Vatican requires non-believer doctors to examine the evidence and confirm there is no natural cause for healing.

Also, who could provide better evidence the apostles who were eyewitnesses to the life and death of Jesus? If anything, they would be the most concerned with accuracy, more so than some outsider. To say otherwise is denying 2000 years of history.

Please, proceed to tell us more about the magic you believe actually happens.

You have to deny that God acts in this world today.

No, you have to demonstrate it.

You demonstrated that these things are logical... how?

I have been posting about miracles, such as the Resurrection, that I do believe happened. None of the responses, such as "Jesus didn't really die. He never existed. The Roman soldiers were bribed, etc are unproved conjectures that go against 2000 years of history, so then atheists here deny that one can know history.

When you remember that you just posted this on a device forged from scientific understanding, powered by a natural force that science discovered and learned the rules thereof, and transmitted through yet a third technology developed through science, all the while being alive because medical and agricultural science allows you to stay healthy and well fed, you will understand how ungrateful and myopic you sound when you dismiss science because it doesn't know everything yet.

You have to have faith that science will someday understand everything. You have no proof for that. It is an assumption. Science seems to be your religion.
You seem to be assuming that the laws of nature are a closed system, therefore, nothing can act on it from the outside, so then a violation of natural law is impossible. However, within a theistic framework, natural law is not a closed system; and so a miracle is not a violation of natural law. (New Evidence that Demands a Verdict, p. 663.)
You have no proof that natural law is a closed system.

No no, you have to be honest enough not to profess absolute certainty in everything. You know what that's called? Keeping an open goddamn mind.

I hope your mind is open enough to realize the things you are assuming, but not so open that your brains fall out.

You have to believe that this incredibly complex universe is just an accident. This is totally irrational.

Which is why nobody but Mr. Strawman believes that.

So who created it? It seems common sense that a machine points to its designer and a building points to its architect. You observe a highly ordered universe. Who designed it? It would have to be a preexisting being that did not need to be created and on which all things owe their existence.

It is as if atheists start with a conclusion that God does not exist, and then work backward to make reality fit their conclusion.

Sorry, lemme just go and fix my irony meter. It just exploded. People got hurt.

[quote]Atheists in this forum have denied that truth is knowable through logic. They are skeptical about history and miracles. That is making history and reality fit one's belief.

[Undeceived]

I don't do good things because I'm grateful, I do them because it helps others

Why help others? Can you give me a logical reason?

[pocaracas]

I don't do good things because I'm grateful, I do them because it helps others

Why help others? Can you give me a logical reason?

If, for some reason, you find yourself in the need of help from a stranger, you'd want that stranger to help you, even if there's no immediate gain for that stranger... would you not?
Golden rule.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I don't do good things because I'm grateful, I do them because it helps others

Why help others? Can you give me a logical reason?

Because I'm a nice person. What's your excuse?

[Undeceived]

Why help others? Can you give me a logical reason?

If, for some reason, you find yourself in the need of help from a stranger, you'd want that stranger to help you, even if there's no immediate gain for that stranger... would you not?
Golden rule.

So you help others to foster a culture in which people are more likely to help you?